Two close friends of mine don’t attend church. Actually, more than two, but the two I am thinking of are interesting because, quite frankly, they are the two most influential people I know. I won’t get into what they are doing with their lives, but they are literally positively affecting thousands. And when I say positively affecting, I mean feeding them, getting them water, setting them free from slavery and so forth. And I seem to meet these guys all the time, people who love Jesus, love other people and are visionary leaders with no shortage of passion. And they don’t go to church.
It got me wondering, and I am hoping you can share your opinion. A recent survey we did on this site showed that the majority of readers attend church, and many people who read this blog actually work at churches. So I am guessing you’ll have an opinion.
Forgive me if I step on toes, also. I don’t know how to ask these questions without offending some of you. But to me, the landscape of church in America feels like this:
1. Leadership in church has to do with teaching and administrating mostly centered around education. Sunday morning is an education/worship experience, retreats are educational, youth group is way more experiential but it’s also heavily educational and so forth. So to be a leader in the church, your gifts and skills revolve around being a speaker/educator or an administrator of education and events. There are certainly categories outside that realm, but not many in the average church.
2. Church attendance, then, is mostly about learning something, something about God, about yourself, about how to live morally, about how to love God and receive grace and so forth. This is huge and important stuff we have all benefited from. However, in our culture, most of these truths are broken up into formulaic steps you can take to be more moral, have a Godly marriage, be a devoted follower of God and so forth. Again, all good stuff.
3. When Jesus chose his disciples, they weren’t a group of educators. Now this hurts, personally, because, well, if there were a broad category for what I do, it would be that of educator. I deal in ideas. But Christ chose a diversity of craftsman. Oh well, I always have Paul to identify with. Nevertheless, the genius here is that the gospel was at street level, accessible to the common man, not stuck in an ivory tower. The gospel translated by fishermen and carpenters might have been understood very differently than the gospel translated from a life-long academic or educator.
Are the leaders of your church as diverse as the Apostles, or are they mostly educators?
Now lets be fair. If you happen to be an educator, or happen to be somebody who likes the truths of scripture translated for you into doable steps, it might be hard to be objective. Would you still attend if, each sunday, the pastor didn’t give a sermon but went over blueprints for how to build better well-drilling systems, all as an answer to Jesus’ request to bring water to Him when He was thirsty? What if church were not educational but action oriented and experiential? Would we still have the same leaders? (I say this as an educational leader involved in church culture!)
But, that begs a question. If you are a visionary leader who doesn’t think in formulas, and has no calling to work in a church, where do you fit? Is there a place for you? If you want to build a railroad across Africa, for example, are you going to be helped by your church? That’s not to say the church should help you, because it has no obligation to do so, but the point is there is nothing aiding your life mission down at the local church. These people come for a while, then fade off, starting their own little communities of Christians following Jesus who are doing work not unlike they are doing. Because they are not educators or administrators of education, they don’t have a lot of practical application for church.
One could say they should not forsake the assembly, but they don’t. The assembly just doesn’t happen to assemble on Sunday mornings. in fact, the assembly scripture is talking about looks more like a dinner club than a community college or conference center, which is what many churches look like today.
So my question to you is, is church losing visionary leaders who could change the world outside the church mold? And if so, how can a church mold change to include more people than teachers and learners? Or do you think it’s doing just fine and those people should conform?
And my last question is, do you attend church, and why or why not?
Thanks for your openness and objectivity.
It was edifying reading this blog about church attendance. There can come a time when a person can be taught by the Spirit of God and has no need for man’s teaching. This is Biblical. I was literally taken out of the church realm by the Spirit of God and at the time was confused as to why. I sang on our praise team and loved it and really was used for hands on prayer/healing for our church attendees. It was a little difficult not to go to church at that time but time out of church has brought much wisdom. My fellow churchers were praying for me because in their eyes I was backsliding but I knew I was on the right path. Do I have a big ministry? No. Am I saving the world? No. Am I living for a day when the righteous will see Christ? No. What I am doing is living my life, working very hard on not judging, “good or evil” and sharing with people as our paths cross. I see Christ in every person. Not to say that is not a struggle sometimes and so it must be when people look at me. As I step back it appears that so much of what we do is out of “ego”. Yes, missions can be even be a part of a huge ego. I’m learning more about myself and hold noone else to my standards. The most important thing is to respect that each person has their path to take and if it isn’t the same as mine, that is not my call to judge it. If all of us lived our life like Jesus did, there would be no need for organized religion.
I do attend a church gathering.
I actually go to a house church. It’s a network actually. It’s called The Journey House Church Network. Right now there are 2 house churches under the network. Each house church meets on different nights of the week and we meet at different people’s houses each week. Then once a month we have a larger “Gathering” where all the house churches come together in one location and we fellowship with each other. Our model is the Upper Room described in Acts chapters 2 and 4.
The vision for our house church network is “Being the church, not going to church.” We recognize that everyone, literally everyone, is a leader. Because we define leadership as influence. Everyone has influence. Some people have a lot of influence, and some people don’t have a lot of influence. And then some people have good influence and some people have bad influence. But everyone has influence, so everyone is a leader of some sort.
With that, we try and help people who are a part of The Journey to step more into their gifts and strengths and callings as leaders and help them become more intentional about increasing their positive influence.
As far as our weekly “church gatherings,” we don’t have “educators” or “administrators” running the show. Everyone takes part. We study the Bible verse by verse, digging into it and asking practical questions about real life and Jesus. With all of this, we work on being open and honest and vulnerable with each other.
With all of this, it is pretty uncomfortable. There is a lot of stepping out of comfort zones. Which is good. There is a lot of growth and huge impacts in our community. Again, it’s about being the church, not going to church.
Hi Everyone–
I LOVE this post and it deeply resonates with my current reality. Recently I was participating in a BLOG poll for a Publishing House CEO and Leader who wanted to know his audience. As I went about the survey, something really rustled my feathers and haunted me the coming days (actually this has troubled me for quite some time only this survey hit the nail in more). When asked are you a christian? Yes. Are you a leader? Yes. How involved a Christian? Very. What kind of leadership are you in at your church? I stopped. Befuddled. Trouble. Looked at the categories. None. None? I had not one category to check.
See for 10 years I worked in the non-profit, interdenominational, para-church world. It was my ‘tribe’ for quite some time. Now two years into being “out on my own” I don’t know exactly where I fit? I have a deep passion for the church, God’s people, but when it comes to the institution–the day in and day out goings of a geographical place/building and people–I feel really “out of it.”
I, like Donald, feel a calling to be an “ideas” person and articulate some of the human experience. I lead out of this and my positioning in the Kingdom is becoming clearer. I want to help people get more in touch with their souls so they can lead from that place and sustain their call wherever it is. Interestingly enough though, I still don’t know how this plays out in day to day church, or at least the way it’s been defined?
Sure I’ve felt guilt. Tried to find a place to fit. But as I’ve been wrestling with this more and more I’ve often wondered, “Could it be that this because we are in the midst of a Great Reformation? Are these some of the symptoms?”
And you know what? In my heart I’ve landed that we are….I’m curious what do you guys think?
Another thing to add to the pot is rethinking the way we’ve done church. A good friend of mine shared with me about a book he read THE SHAPING OF THINGS TO COME It’s a whole sociological and biblical take on church. Why have we made it about listening to only one person, or a handful of peoples ideas instead of a communal experience and living organism? A place where a pastor shepherds, an intercessor prays and shares, a prophet warns and illuminates, an exhorter calls people forth, a servant ignites passion to serve people hands on with truth, grace, and justice….where each person offers out of the Spirit living and breathing in them? Maybe what God is trying to say to us, shepherd us in, and call forth in us individually and communally would ignite more quickly? And we’d leave more filled.
Contemplating such things and experimenting with them in small groups have both inspired me and freaked me out. What I’m left pondering is…how do we need to reshape church so everyone plays a part? We would actively look to each member to offer us their part? And how does this change the way we do church, think about church, and offer church?
Ok now I’m gonna go catch up on everyone else’s posts. Thank you for this post. What comfort!
I was taught growing up that if you don’t go to church then your not foloowing God. I beleived that. I went to church out of fear but was too rebellious to pay attention. i thought that was wrong of God to force me into church because I loved him and wanted to please him i wnet but I think i would have went happier if I didn’t feel forced.
With that said I don’t think a person needs to go to church to be a christian. Sometime i learn more about God and commmunity and church outside the building than inside.
This past weekend I went to a photography conference (escalatelive2010) and I learned more about community and God there than from the church meeting I missed to be there.
i work with the church now. And i enjoy sundays but sometimes I think us as christians put too much into them. rely on them for our spiritual food and forget that God exits outside the building.
My church recently lost our building and we had church at the park. It was the best “church” experience of my life. people walking by were welcomed and we looked crazy but it was amazing. i am sad to be back indoors again…
“What if church were not educational but action oriented and experiential? Would we still have the same leaders?”
I’m not sure why there must be an “either/or” concept when dealing with Christian communities as educational and experiential.
I’m not so sure that John Calvin (sorry for the old reference to one overplayed and overused Protestant reformer) for example, saw a difference within the two aspects. To be educated in orthodox Christian piety resulted directly into ones involvement within the broader community, their workplace, and in the lives of those around them.
I think the moment when we must feel the need to choose between one or the other, we will find ourselves severely lacking.
“As the chief moral guardian of the community, the church must implore men [and women] to be good and well-intentioned and must extol the virtues of kindheartedness and conscientiousness. But somewhere along the way the church must remind men [and women] that devoid of intelligence, goodness and conscientiousness will become brutal forces leading to shameful crucifixions. Never must the church tire of reminding men [and women] that they have a moral responsibility to be intelligent.” Martin Luther King, Jr. (Strength to Love, 46)
I’ve been thinking about this post since yesterday, and your post today has been a good fleshing out of this initial question. But I wonder if even the question itself “Does your church cultivate all leaders or just church leaders” could be reframed? What about this; “Does your church cultivate all PEOPLE, or just church PEOPLE”?
We very quickly throw the word “leader” around, especially in church, when most people are just concerned with how to be less angry with their children, or how to make it through another day of a job they can’t stand, or what in the world their husband/wife/friend/boss, etc really wants from them. The thing about people is that those who are the best “leader” material, in the Christian sense, probably aren’t interested in being leaders at all. They’re just trying to be good people, people who love Jesus and try to love others as best they can.
So I tend to bristle, quite frankly, at the word “leader” when used to often. Good people tend to be good leaders. Bad people, even bad people given to leadership, tend to be bad leaders. After a while, they burnout, get bitter and angry, or they become megalomaniacs who use everyone around them. So I think the church might do well to focus on cultivating better people, who will in some place and time, possibly end up being great leaders. And I think some of your ideas in today’s blog entry are great ways to cultivate people.
I love the church, I work in the church, and I deeply believe that, as crazy as this sounds, it is the church that God has commissioned to do his work in the world. So God bless the church!
The church is indeed losing visionary leaders, and it isn’t possible for the church to commit a change that would retain and utilize these people. Furthermore, the concept of having people conform to the church is what’s wrong with the entire system to begin with.
And the answer to your second, and more valuable question, is absolutely not. I do not attend a conventional church, nor will I ever. It is diseased to it’s core and has cast me aside long ago, thus becoming irrelevant to me and the majority of my fellow believers. My preferred path is to embrace God directly, without the filter and falsehoods.
I don’t go to church, I am a part of the church. I haven’t regularly attended a “traditional” church service in several years, but I haven’t even thought about it because I am more involved and connected than ever by being involved in house churches. I do this because I believe it is a better to approach church this way.
In regards to point 1, I would agree for Protestant churches. I’ve heard it said that the center focus of Protestant churches is the sermon, for Catholics its Eucharist, and for Orthodox it’s the icons. In any case, Protestantism was birthed mostly out of theological differences and has been significantly influenced by the Enlightenment and focus on facts and knowledge of modernity.
2. I’ve recently argued this point on my blog. An analogy is that church should be more like learning to dance, where teaching goes along with practice, rather than a college lecture or motivational speech.
3. I heard a teacher point out last week John 13:34-35. The disciples of other rabbinical schools were known for what they believed (probably like Calvinists and Arminianists). Jesus gives them a new command. It wasn’t the command to love which was new, but the idea that his disciples are to be known by their love–an action–rather than beliefs. Doctrines are divisive, but Jesus wants us to be unified.
I’ve been thinking about church attendance recently. I’m someone who left a church with my husband, one we attended for more than a decade, because we just didn’t “fit in” anymore with the American Christian culture (not necessarily Bibilical culture) direction the church was going. Now we’ve been looking for other churches for quite some time, and we can’t find any that match with us. Any tips?
Peg, What didn’t fit? What would match with you? What kind of church did you leave and where do you live? I don’t have any advice. Just exploring. I’m an Christian missionary married to a woman from a Muslim family, belong to a church of people very unlike myself and have seen unspeakable Christian ugliness, so your comment interests me, because we’ve always dealt with following Jesus while not fitting in.
Hey Don, this is Gui from São Paulo, Brazil. I love your books and blog. Just wanted to share a little bit about my church.
We call it Zoe (“abundant life”, from John 10.10) and, well, it’s actually hard to “define” it. How do you define a living body? Maybe, as you suggested we do with ourselves, it’s better to just tell our story. So it all started with this American baptist missionary family that came to Brasil and tried to plant a church in the traditional way, but that simply did not work. So, instead, they started going were people were: university campuses around the city, starbucks cafeterias, shopping malls etc., integrating with people, and there community emerged. We are now a group of university students and young people in general who get together where we are — we meet on Saturday nights at one of the missionary’s home, but we also gather at 2 different starbucks twice a week and different campuses during the week — to share life, edify each other and unite our powers to strategically and creatively announce and demonstrate God’s reign.
…Ok, maybe that was too vague. I guess I gotta work on my story-telling skills
Anyway, our website is in Portuguese, so maybe you’ll want to look here http://plantingbrazil.wordpress.com/our-hosts/ where you can read about the church itself and about a conference/mission trip we’re hosting this week with Australian missiologist Michael Frost. This blog is written by an IMB campus ministry researcher who’s with us this week along with +40 people from 4 countries. They joined us in some of our activities, and there you can read a bit of what’s going on.
P.S.: I ended up forgetting to tell about MY view on all this. My story will do it: a guy who grew up in presbyterian traditional environment gets tired of religious culture and rejects it without knowing where to go. While seeking answers, through a series of odd “coincidences” he meets his foreign wife, and finds meaning and purpose in simple community and a closer relationship with his Creator, changing his life forever.
Don, had to hold my husband down as I read this blog out loud to him because, as he says, how can we “go” to church when we are the church. You are so right on!!!
Don. Do you really read all these responses?
Most.
Hi All,
I’m a Pastor Preacher type and love the discussion and empathize with the painful experiences of church life over the last 50 years or so. No one in a church gets hurt as much as a pastor. It is part of his calling.
Some observations. The church will always be broken as it is made up of broken people on a journey to wholeness with the risen Christ. There are no teachings in the Bible that suggest the christian life is a pain free, struggle free journey. That misconception, of a heaven like existence on earth, is contrary to the scriptures and church history.
His primary form of communication was preaching as the prophets before him. I think the difference was the setting and naturalness of the sermon.
The educational model has been an appropriate cultural model as the American experience is driven by the educational model to a great extent. As the internet has changed the knowledge delivery system to a more self centered model so the populace is becoming more self-centered/autonomous in it’s learning style. As in all things this is both good and bad. There is an awful lot of incorrect thinking and teaching simply accepted because an individual likes it ie ‘the Holy Spirit told me so’. Read acts eight and the eunuch asking for a teacher. God’s word was never intended to be accepted in a way that lends it to private interpretation 2 Peter 1:20. The old phrase was “thus sayeth the Lord” and has always been delivered in natural ways through a teacher/preacher to a gathering of people.
Real community has always been the ideal. And it eventually always establishes a location which is paid for by someone. House churches are supported by those who provide the house it meets in.
I have observed in my almost 40 years of serving the church that the best and brightest are the first to bail out on the church when they are disappointed. That leaves a weakened and anemic body to carry on. The para-church movement, which is an almost totally American phenomena, is a good example. It woos the best away from churches leaving them dysfunctional and weak to carry on then appeals to churches for monetary support. The face of ‘church’ is changing but we need to be careful how we change it.
As to the original question of training and developing leaders: We need to observe that many of our worst enemies were trained by christian churches and American institutions. The Apostles Paul and John are careful to distinguish between those who are on Christ’s side and those who are enemies and the dividing line is whether they are part of the church or not. Do we really want to develop leaders the Apostle would consider enemies to the cross?
Got me thinking. Great comments. Thanks, Mason.
I’m starting to hate the phrase “para-church”. The best churches I’ve been a part of didn’t have a Sunday service and weren’t part of any denomination. They were communities of believers who learned and worked together. The assumption that anyone who isn’t attending a traditional church service is also forsaking fellowship, accountability, and worship simply isn’t accurate for me or many people I know. It’s harder, and one must be devoted to it, but in this age, not going to “church” doesn’t even mean we don’t listen to sermons, as many are available for hearing outside of Sunday service. I’m not even sure that anyone is expecting it to be pain-free. For me (and I balked a little inside when you said that pastors get hurt the most, because I have witness and experienced pastors and leaders doing unspeakable damage to people), the expectation isn’t that it will be painless. However, as much as there are things to be learned from pain and from working through relational friction and crisis, there can also be a time, much like dealing with addicts or abusers or people in complete denial about destructive behaviors, when you say “Enough! We aren’t helping each other. Love dictates I can’t ignore the problem any more, reality teaches that I cannot change you, and I refuse to be your enabler.” We hurt each other with our sin all the time and frequently without realizing it, and sometimes allowing someone to continue to do damage that would horrify them if they could begin to see it isn’t helping them. I’m young and stupid, but I think it can be an act of love to leave “the church”.
Hey Don,
I find myself asking many of the same questions. I’ve been in full time youth ministry for almost seven years. Teach class twice a week, educate, educate, educate. But I really feel like the most positive, moving, relationship-building moments I’ve had have not come in the classroom… or the worship service. They’ve come chatting till midnight with a my wife and another teen at our house, going on a canoe trip, going fishing/hunting with some of the dads. So if that’s the case, if the moments we grow the most are based more on events in our lives and relationships… what are we doing at church?
I feel sort of stuck in that, I love ministry, but I’m sick of church. And when I say church, I don’t mean the people (church), I mean the event/institution/system (church). I love the people, I’m tired of the system. So what do I do? Been praying a lot about that lately.
I think part of the problem (and I hate pointing fingers, but sometimes Jesus did) is that those who have the authority in the church (be it senior pastors, elders, deacons, etc…) and who come from a different generation are completely happy with the event/system/institution. But the rest of us are feeling suffocated by it and longing for something deeper.
To answer your questions:
Yes, the church is losing visionary leaders by what seems to me to be restricting molds and the separation of sacred and secular largely defined by tradition and not Biblical or Spirit-led models.
The church is not doing “just fine” with non-teachers and non-learner (I happen to a learner/teacher too). It seems that regardless of church model (traditional building, house church, etc), all still seem to cater to those that are drawn to more abstract ideas (of community, what have you) than those who with oil stained hands and calloused feet.
Jesus wasn’t afraid of hard work and modeled it with his carpentry background. He didn’t call his disciples by saying to them, “Follow me and I will make you preachers” but “fishers of men”– an interesting and appealing call to fishermen who eventually did become preachers and apostles.
To a certain extent, people do have to conform to learning. The blue-collared disciples had to sit through many of Jesus’ teachings, as this was his primary method of exposing truth. Jesus himself regularly went to synagogue (Luke 4:16) to teach and learn. But Jesus didn’t conform to the teachers of his day- he plainly and, much to his critics dismay, lived “in the world”.
Scripture gives special attention to serving and especially serving the saints, and sometimes I need a nurse and not a preacher. Or I need an honest, Christ-serving car mechanic and not a pastor. We forget that many Spirit-filled people in Acts were called to primarily serve tables, not teach.
And, to answer your last question: I do attend church. I attend because, despite her flaws, Christ established and loves the Church. His last prayer was for love AND unity of believers, not bitterness and division. The prior is painstakingly difficult but the latter shatters my heart even more.
Every church that I have participated in has a select few that “lead” the rest. I have found if you don’t fit the form then nobody really wants to give you the time of day. I do find the psychology of it all very interesting. I am thankful Jesus sent us the Holy Spirit as He is our comforter. Sometimes men confound the Word of God with their interpretation of the Word. I say just read it ask the Holy Spirit for knowledge and it will be given. It seems so simple to me,love Jesus, keep the commandments, and do what Jesus tells us to do. Organizations make it complicated.
I quit attending “traditional” church years ago. I spent most of my first 30+ years in church and now I’m just done. On Sunday mornings, I meet with a group of friends, we have brunch, then we talk about God or spiritual topics (or what Don Miller said in his last book on occasion). It lasts for hours. Sometimes we sing, sometimes we don’t. Honestly, my interest in church is gone.
If it did become more action-oriented as Don describes, maybe I would consider going back. Maybe.
Here’s another thing to add to the list…church leadership is dominated by the thinking and style of educators, yes. Let’s not forget it is also, with rare exceptions, also dominated by the thinking and style of men. I believe the statistics still show that women outnumber men in church attendance…yet “church” is primarily a male business administered from a very male point of view.
See “Adventures in Missing the Point” by McClaren and Campolo
I wholeheartedly agree with you! One of my major dissonances with the churches I have attended was how they viewed women and their role in the life of the church…well just their role period. Part of my journey right now is “detox” from so much of the old thinking that I was steeped in. It takes a while for the stain to soak out, some of it may never go.
Mark Twain once said, “The church is always trying to get people to reform; it might not be a bad idea for it to reform itself a little, by way of example.” My wife and I have spent countless hours talking about this subject. We wish so much that the church would move from pious rules, and merely giving scriptures to people, into a place of action. If we are to be God’s hands and feet, we have grown too lazy. We need to be a people of action. The church should take on social injustices, instead of sliding them under the rug. If they are supposed to know us by our works, then it is time to take action. Loving people is the best witness.
“Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.”–St. Francis of Assisi
Well hmmm. Seems to me that church isnt under a steeple or at 11 on Sunday morning all facing forward. Its me and you, and with any luck, facing each other. Its a relationship between people like me who are fumbling around trying to remember to remember to stay out of the godless vacuum I create for myself pretty much without a thought. Its me thinking that maybe if I am on a team then I can win…or at least improve my game and keep my glove open to catch a little of the love of God raining down.
So do I go to church? You bet I do. But rarely under a steeple at 11 on Sunday morning. Sometimes it intentional, like when I slow down to connect, not get things done, not even find answers for them or me, but just be present with someone else carrying the hope.
And sometimes its by surprise, like when I am just mindlessly going through my day or fast asleep and the phone rings and a person needs to remember, as do I, why we hope. And then right there, in my Sunday best pjs, I am in church.
You know this post made me remember a conversation with a friend who once asked me why I wasn’t a pastor. She was a believer and so am I. The words tumbled out without pause, “What do you mean, Phyllis?” I said, “I am.”
I do attend church – not just because I’m the (senior) pastor, but because I do believe that gathering for worship with other believers is important, edifying, good, and godly. (Spoken like a true church leader, I know!)
I also believe that the church, properly expressed is the place from which God’s mission is launched: whether it is handing out Bibles and food at a local downtown mission (like we did this morning), or drilling water wells in third world countries (like I’d love to do some day), or helping people get out of the rat race and truly living for Christ where ever they live and work.
One thing for sure: it’s NOT about playing church, it’s about being the body of Christ in the world. I like the questoins you are asking!
Look into the APEST (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Shepherds, Teachers) by Alan Hirsch.
The church focus on teachers and shepherds, which are needed, but forgets about other roles.
http://www.theforgottenways.org/apest/
Our founding pastor doesn’t go to church anymore. He takes the church to his followers. His name is Marty Edwards, and his “church” is riding Harley Davidson’s on Sundays. His ministry is called Black Sheep and his mission is to take Christ to bikers that never would come to church. His motto is They aren’t coming here so we have to go to them… Amen!
i really struggle with the concept of leadership in church. I (judge me if you want) left the church last year, after living with a pastor and his family. I was so disappointed with the elevation of “leaders” and “worship leaders” in the church. they protect the leaders, but couldn’t care less about the “lowest of the low”.
i don’t need a leader. i need community. and because i was a “single” female, i was excluded from this community. i don’t know why i’m posting. but i’m just trying to figure this out.
I haven’t been attending church regularly for some time now. There simply are no churches near me that I can stomach. I’ve tried. I long for a place that will allow for questions, for difference, for not-knowing…but most of all honesty! I can’t sit and listen to another teaching that paints a happy face on the reality of life and asks me to go along with the deception, or calls something evil that I know is not.
Then I begin to ask myself the question: Will I ever find what I’m looking for, or does it simply not exist? Is this bigger than the right kind of church? Perhaps I am past church…and that makes me sad. For all of my frustrations with the church, its where I grew up, felt loved, felt connected. As I reevaluate where I stand today, I want church to be a part of my life, but I literally feel sick sitting through a service. I feel like I can’t sit still, I’m going to scream. Sometimes I have a hard time not blurting out my dissent when I hear teaching that seems wrong to me. I’m at a loss as to which direction to go.
I completely understand. It’s hard even to know where to meet friends when you’ve always centered your social life around “church”. But I’m with you – I felt sick to my stomach everytime I walked through the doors and just got tire of feeling sick. You aren’t alone
Your Question: is church losing visionary leaders who could change the world outside the church mold? And if so, how can a church mold change to include more people than teachers and learners? Or do you think it’s doing just fine and those people should conform?
Hi Donald,
I believe that people should never conform! Lols, well please forgive my bluntness as I am a champion of liberty, born again Christian and a lover of the Word! Paul said in his epistle to the high priests of Rome,
…”And be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good acceptable and perfect will of God.”
I believe that this rests on an individual’s conscience; the visionary leaders that are in church and those that are not. I’ve personally had a visionary leader leave to plant another church in another city. He first explored the scriptures and then made his move to go after 10 long years of active involvement.
In my opinion, the Word of God should definitely be the focus in any assembly. Without It, we have only our wisdom and not the will of God to rely on. As it is written in the book of proverbs,
“…He who trusts in his own heart is a fool”
Brutal I know for this day and age. Although we often aspire to gentle for the fear of offence to our brothers. Notwithstanding, this relates to everybody who (especially myself) who thinks/believes he knows what is good for the Church and disregards God’s wisdom. It is a constant wrestle within ourselves to to learn humility in an attempt to gain understanding and accept what is spiritually discerned. The same is what was written to Paul’s epistle to the church at corinth during times of disunity-
“”…the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
and with that, I wish to end with the note that if we wish to be a part of a church, we must first understand what a church is and to understand what a church is, we must seek the kingdom of God as it is described in the Word of God.
“… Study to shew yourself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
I don’t know where to begin…but my church attendance has dropped, and that is lower-case “c”. I believe no matter where I am I am part of His Church. I have lost trust in many people in the church, the empty compliments given to me in order to join “their” ministry…who exactly am I called to serve? Like someone else who responded here, I feel many in the congregation have been praying for me and my husband b/c in their eyes we have been backsliding, but really we are walking more closely w/ the Lord as we have matured spiritually to “test the spirits.” Just b/c someone in the church says they have a “vision” of what they foresee me doing, does not make it so. I struggled w/ miscarriages and infertility, and it was God, no church leader, who enabled me to finally submit to His will, and I then had twins. His Word says much about the calling of motherhood, and my role as a wife. It seems that the church has the same view as the world…serve the church first, then worry about your family. Jesus wants me to first influence those closest around me…if there is reconciling to be made w/ siblings/parents/spouse…I don’t have all the answers, but I am being lead “back home.” I regret being so busy w/ church stuff that I neglected so many precious things.
I encounter women all the time who are hurting from infertility and miscarriage, and even though my twins are now 5, the experience is still w/ me for me to minister to them. In a library, friend’s home, wherever…I grew frustrated w/ the expectations (perhaps perceived I admit)that I had to then take the next steps as almost everyone else to become “group leaders” among many of the other classes centered around psych+minimal Scripture books.
Scripture memory verses plus formulas to convert unbelievers…I don’t think my brain can learn that way!! I have seen what God can do! These man-made methods trouble me.
One day I went sharing in the city. I met a young lady and asked if she would like to do a survey about what life is for. She politely said that she would like to. After a bit of conversation I started sharing the gospel with her and my testimony.
She later shared that she had lost her baby at child birth and that if God really existed, why did He take her child away? Why didn’t he/she have a chance to live?
I was dumbstruck. There was nothing I could say out of experience to share with her in the hopes that I may be a comforter. She had genuinely gone through something very painful. I tried to think of anyone I knew that had gone through the same thing and the only person I could think of was King David, from the book of Samuel.
David fasted and probably did everything conceivable to try and save his child from certain death in the hopes that the grace of God be made effect. The result was not what he had hoped; his child did not live. The bible says King David arose from the earth, annointed himself and washed and put on his apparel and ate. Then when his servants were surprised he said,
“…While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.”
“I shall go to him but he shall not return to me”, Where was King David; a man after God’s own heart going in the afterlife? This was the only source of comfort I could offer the lady I was talking to. Although I didn’t tell her, I remembered her in my prayers.
Where a church has failed some, one of God’s Churches has potentially sowed or reaped or both. Some might wonder what the difference is. Jesus said,
“…If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” -John 8:31
okay, so, i think that a huge problem in the church today is that in almost all local churches their is one man (or maybe a few men) that does most of the “work.” i think that everyone should be encouraged to find their passion and calling and use that to help the church (that’s your local church and the church as in all christians)
Now i attend church in it’s traditional american setting and i love all the people there so much, but i’m also apart of a small group with people from my high-school and we’re so much closer than a group of 70 (or however many your church has) could ever be. it’s such a family like atmosphere, we’re open with each other, can encourage each other throughout the week, and their is no need for structure; we just get together, hang out, and start talking about what God has been showing everyone throughout the week. (usually it takes awhile to get into serious discussions, but hey, that’s okay) just look at jesus, he had a close group of 12 friends, i think their’s reason for that
we reproduce our selves in everything we do.
So true
I attend church sporadically. I worked for my former church for almost six years. And left bloodied and bruised.
It’s taken me a long time to rebound from that. I work for an amazing NGO (that you know well) that has been a salve. God looks really different to me on the other side of my 12 year church experience – and I miss it. I’m looking for a fit. Most traditional churches seem cloistered and cloying and cliquish.
I listen to podcasts a lot. And love a corporate worship gathering. It’s the cloistering cliquish people of God that I struggle with.
I still have hope. I want to find a chuch home that fits – one that alows people to serve, and love and learn without a bunch of programs and membership tags that determines whether you are “in” or “out.”
Definitely love liberty! Amen to that!
[...] Donald Miller on developing more than just teachers in the church [...]
We returned to the church of our youth, we spent awhile checking out the Evangelical churches. They are great for what they do, but we always felt like we were being taught how to manage our finances, or our marriage. Real practical stuff to be sure, but they just felt to us like 60 minute seminars on improving our lives. We now attend a liturgical Lutheran service sundays for the means of Grace and corporate confession, and then do church all week with friends and family.