In an age where a few celebrity pastors are projecting an immature masculine image, a guy like Tony Dungy reminds us of what a good man looks like. He looks like a sober, mature, thoughtful, strong, disciplined person who brings peace into chaos. It would be easy for some of us guys to get led astray by false teachers who use shame, guilt and ridicule to make themselves feel more manly, but these guys are just covering up their own insecurities. Here’s Coach Dungy talking like a man.
If you’ve not registered yet, come on out and hear Coach Dungy in Portland on July 30th.
Don,
I am a huge Tony Dungy fan. I think he is an excellent example of what a God-fearing man should look like. I was so glad he was the coach of my favorite team, the Colts, for so long.
I can only assume you are talking about Driscoll based on other blogs I have seen circulating about his comments on masculinity and while I don’t necessarily agree with the way he speaks sometimes or the way he approaches some subjects, doesn’t it seem a little harsh to throw out the false teacher label. That has been thrown around a lot in Christian circles with guys like Rob Bell and Joel Osteen and it is a dangerous accusation. I think highlighting guys like Tony Dungy and Bob Goff are great ways to show what true masculinity looks like.
Don, thanks for the video. Dungy is an inspiring man. Can I wonder out loud though? Should we be quick to use “false teachers”? I think I’d like some context for that one, that’s all.
I love the virtues, but are these male-only virtues? That is where the conversation needs to go.
Well, of course not male-only. If you want to go all philosophical ( which I always do…
) then you could say that all that is good & virtuous comes from God, who is above or beyond a single sex (male or female).
He (ironic language) made us male and female in His image. There is the whole masculine (gender) != male (sex) thing, but let’s leave that for a bit.
Virtues, and all things, look somewhat different when expressed through the lens of one sex or the other. The bible usually uses “He” to refer to God – which is masculine, not male, btw – probably, I thing, because in the culture at the time, God’s personality, and the relationship He wanted to have with his people made the most sense corresponding to the Masculine cultural imagery. (Father, Lover, Husband, Provider, etc.)
Having a teacher teach from a male perspective, and talk about being Godly men should make us more like God, and to see the virtues for more like what they are, which is of God, and so maybe see how they are worked out through the female perspective as well.
Maybe?
Dan
Thanks for posting this, especially this week with the whole Mark Driscoll stuff. The way I understand Scripture, masculinity is defined by responsibility and humility, not testosterone.
Yes, indeed.
Very, very well said. Thank you.
[...] when Don Miller weighed in to the recent “real masculinity” debate (background: here and here and here), he did so [...]
Hope the Dungy event rocks.
Scripture doesn’t waste a lick of ink defining masculinity or femininity.Instead, two commandments “Love all of God with all of who you are” and “love your neighbor as yourself.” It seems to me that the “all of who you are piece” covers the masculinity/femininity piece.
“Scripture doesn’t waste a lick of ink defining masculinity or femininity.”
That is a wholly untrue statement.
And I will said I didn’t really have a problem with what Pastor Mark said. While inflammatory, when he explained his reasoning behind the question I think some of the sting was taken out of the statement. However, I can see how it can be taken negatively and I wouldn’t fault anyone for getting upset.
Also, it should be mentioned that Pastor Mark did publicly repent for his statement on The Resurgence website for anyone to see.
Elliot, I’m not saying that there aren’t verses that tell husbands and wives to love and serve their spouses, or to work, and take for their children. They exist.
But there is no exhaustive catalog in scripture that details the contours of what it means to be a man or a woman. Maleness and Femaleness is a gift of creation that “comes with the package.” The energy of scripture is spent told to love and God and others with every fiber of our being. Some of those fibers look different from person to person.
Yes, there’s Proverbs 31. But that’s an acrostic poem intended to praise the virtues of a good wife from A-Z. It’s not legalistic checklist that a woman slaves to.
I don’t believe God provides the list because masculinity/femininity is defined by:
1) God’s creation and the biological realities that come with it.
2) The limited scripture about the topic.
3) And social contract. There is variance from culture to culture about what valued in men and women. Sometimes those values conform to core values in scripture and sometimes not. But it changes and there are variances. My fear is that some celebrity pastors mistake these values for Bible.
Elliot: This might help you understand some people’s frustration with the recent remarks. I’m a few months away from earning my second black belt, this one in a mixed martial arts system. I like to scrap. In my 30′s I entered amateur fights. I’ve had my nose broken and my jaw fractured. I’ve been on crutches for weeks. All from practicing my sport.
But I play piano, love jazz, and write books. I cry during movies and at the sight of my wife at times– simply out of gratitude and awe.
I get so tired when friends try to parse these different phases of my life into masculine or feminine sides. Neither streak of my personality is normative or abnormal for men.
I stand by my original statement, and if anything, there are Biblical examples of what men and women should be- examples that transcend culture and time. I think it’s very limited of you to suggest otherwise.
Also, I don’t need a definition of your masculinity because it wasn’t being questioned.
Pastor Mark has never given an A-Z guideline “If You Don’t Follow This List Perfectly You’re Not A Man Because The Bible Told Me So”. So to assume that just because you like jazz or play piano someone is questioning your masculinity is kind of silly. I think you’re making more assumptions than Mark did by his remark on Facebook.
The issue here men acting like men. That means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. But there are very clearly men who don’t act like men in this world, especially in the Christian context. That is the greater issue at hand, one that should be addressed by pastors regularly.
Elliot,
I wasn’t referring to Mark specifically, but to Evangelicalism’s tendency to add liberally to what the Bible does say about masculinity and femininity.
Peace.
define “repent”.
But does Mr. Dungy share his crystal on his camping trips?
Thanks for mentioning this. I often ponder this subject myself. When I see a lot of the men behind our pulpits and in the church it’s no wonder more males don’t go to church. They often see too many emasculated men who don’t know what it really means to be a man. It’s sad but all of this is the result of not having more fathers in the home. America is becoming a fatherless nation and the results can be seen with our children. We need to help men to understand what it means to be a godly male and we should not have to apologize for that. This is where we need more mentors who know how to model this correctly. I would like to see more interest in this subject.
Well there is that whole Mentoring Project thing…
just read tony dungy’s book: the mentor leader. well worth it!
Great post Don, I’m glad you put this link up.
I may be making an assumption here, but it seems like this might be in response to Mark Driscoll’s beliefs on what Biblical manhood should look like. I’ve listened to a lot of his (Driscoll’s) podcasts, and even read some of what he has written on the issue. Many people in the online forum are accusing Driscoll of something I can’t find proof for. Although you may not agree with him 100%, the general gist of his message is that being a man means being responsible, hard-working, a provider for your family (not just monetarily), and a loving Christ follower. In a time where these attributes are not being stressed, I think Driscoll is doing the right thing. He has yet to make claims that Biblical manhood is about having a beard, punching, or being full of testosterone. In fact, he has said those are not the indicators. Obviously men and women are different, and not just physiologically, and God does have different roles for each gender. I think Driscoll is just trying to call men to be better men.
“…the general gist of his message is that being a man means being responsible, hard-working, a provider for your family (not just monetarily), and a loving Christ follower.”
That could also describe being a woman.
Andrew, I completely agree with you! Well said.
Great post Don, I’m glad you put this link up.
I may be making an assumption here, but it seems like this might be in response to Mark Driscoll’s beliefs on what Biblical manhood should look like. I’ve listened to a lot of his (Driscoll’s) podcasts, and even read some of what he has written on the issue. Many people in the online forum are accusing Driscoll of something I can’t find proof for. Although you may not agree with him 100%, the general gist of his message is that being a man means being responsible, hard-working, a provider for your family (not just monetarily), and a loving Christ follower. In a time where these attributes are not being stressed, I think Driscoll is doing the right thing. He has yet to make claims that Biblical manhood is about having a beard, punching, or being full of testosterone. In fact, he has said those are not the indicators. Obviously men and women are different (not just physiologically), and God does have different roles for each gender. I think Driscoll is just trying to call men to be better men.
I have noticed that an inordinate number of pastors are balding with stubble, a bit overweight, and fairly effeminate. Not sure why. Not saying there’s anything wrong with it either. It’s just odd to see how prevalent that is.
Don,
I agree with some of your points, but like others I’d recommend taking down the ‘false teachers’ bit. Driscoll may have made some errors in judgment, and we may disagree with his ideas on certain issues, but that doesn’t make him a false teacher.
And yes, Tony Dungy is pretty cool.
False teacher doesn’t mean everything he/she says is false, it can mean that he/she is false on one particular subject such as this. I think was Don was referencing was the false teaching that masculinity has anything to do with shame, guilt and ridicule. The false teaching is simply a way to cover up for his own insecurities as mentioned in the post. The greater issue here is the continued arguing among the intellectuals within our faith. Folks on the outside of our faith don’t want any part of it as long as there is so much arguing going on from within. One comment mentioned Love the Lord, and Love your neighbors. Let’s just all do that and God will take care of the rest.
I don’t know that Don is saying that Mark Driscoll is a false teacher. He’s come very close to implying it! But that has not been explicitly stated.
Although this term “false teacher” is one of those Christian buzzwords that always acts as gasoline on a fire. As Kevin said above, it sometimes is used in reference to a church leader who teaches something we believe to be untrue, but which is ultimately a matter of opinion on which men and women of faith can disagree while still proclaiming Christ as Lord. In scriptures, this idea of a “false teacher” was something much more serious than that, I believe (see the 2 Peter chap. 2, for example). Calling someone a “false teacher” in the early church meant that they were fit to be kicked to the curb of the church.
And I don’t think that’s what Don means in this case. But…I can’t speak for him.
Others have already said it, but the “false teacher” suggestion/accusation is misguided. (Incidentally, I think Driscoll’s anecdote about his conversation with a “stereotypical blue-collar” guy rings true.)
Mmm I like what you say. The things you post about this. Too often I feel the need to slam others in the name of justice? Very politely of course. I see too few not seeking God’s heart and too many unaware of their influence on others hearts. And sometimes I wonder if only iron can sharpen iron? I feel there is very little I can do to tell a guy about masculinity?
But ah.. You should listen to Bradley Hathaway? I think.. it is called “Manly Man”.. good stuff.
~jage
Driscoll is a very understandable (over)reaction to how aimed directly at the more feminine and sensitive portion of the North American population modern churches really seem to be. I don’t like Driscoll, but his comments about the “chickification of the church” are pretty undeniable.
Too many pastors, not enough prophets. I’m tellin’ ya. Pastors are doing exactly what pastors are supposed to do — being kind and patient with the flock — but if theirs are the only voices we hear, we will definitely become soft…and we have.
I agree. One of the biggest crimes out there, we have decided, is “being a bit negative.”
…though not justified at all.
Driscoll’s wrong about the churches being all cuddly and soft?
[...] http://donmilleris.com/2011/07/14/a-man-among-men/ [...]
Refreshing.
I suspect that we get the essence of our definitions of masculinity and femininity from our culture. In the church we say we’re getting these definitions from scripture, but we’re so enmeshed with our culture that we usually can’t see where where our view of scripture is opaque because of the cultural scales we have on our eyes.
Of our definitions, perhaps. Thing is, there’s stuff about being as male and a female as any of is that goes far, far deeper than definitions, roles and stereotypes.
I’ve been thinking lately about something that might add to this conversation. In Ephesians 4, there’s a lift of gifts God gave to the church, for the purpose of bringing the people of God to maturity. They are: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.
In the American church, it seems to me that the system is dominated by…pastors. Of course, right? Pastors are the head of nearly every church, and most often the ultimate decision makers about the message and tone of the whole organization.
Pastors are — almost by definition — gentle, patient, loving and caring. These are not feminine traits. They are pastoral traits.
I would say that Mark Driscoll has a more “prophetic edge.” Prophetic types are — almost by definition — perpetually frustrated with the status quo. They are hard-edged and blunt. These are not masculine traits. They are prophetic traits. I, a woman, am a prophetic type, too.
Driscoll went the wrong way on this particular occasion. He got it wrong, and the best evidence is the unkindness of his recent statements. God doesn’t talk to his people that way.
There’s something wrong in the church, but it’s not that our men are not good enough men. We have too many pastors and not enough prophets.
I agree that we don’t give any more place to prophets than those who once sent them wandering through the wildernesses, and sawed them in twain and all of that. The churches seem only to welcome, serve and give place for one very specific kind of personality. The rest are increasingly not served, and are staying home. As to God speaking unkindly… He totally does that. Not childishly or needlessly, but if the words given to the prophets in the OT are any indication, He’ll use very harsh, emotionally loaded, disgusting, upsetting langauge. In my bible, anyway.
My favorite topic: gender roles
As a single 25 year old woman — ha, I know there are barely any real man left out there! I think men don’t know who they’re supposed to be anymore and feel not needed, incapable..
The stereotype that really gets to me is ”boys don’t cry” women are emotional and men are tough. Boys learn very quickly that showing softness or emotion will only get them chastised on one form or another. They’re taught from early age to be emotionally “disconnected”
The media creates an expectation of toughness for men. The box office is filled with action-packed, hero movies where the men are tough and show very little emotion (other than anger).
The cultural stereotype of male toughness is hurting our young boys who become very confused men. They don’t know how to express their emotions because it is considered socially unacceptable at least if you want to be considered a “man’s man.”
Men’s relationships with other men are impacted by our culture’s intense homophobia. Fears of being perceived as gay or feminine prohibit men from expressing affection and sharing intimate details with their male friends. Most men interact through sports or utilitarian activities and only share intimate feelings over a beer.
This fear of being labeled “feminine” or the myth that sharing more vulnerable parts of themselves undermines strength and independence, contributes to men holding back their true feelings. This can then hinder their ability to maintain intimate connections with friends, girlfriends, wives etc
I’ll finish with this: as a whole culture we are so disconnected!!! we lack emotional intimacy – bonding.. connecting at deep levels! just being REAL.. and stop pretending like we got it all together.. I think we all crave to be fully known and still be loved and fully accepted for just being “myself”, not what I’ve done or will do but just “ME”
Men, it’s up to you to make a conscious choice today to break the pattern and create intimate, personal relationships with other men.
Step up and lead. God did create Adam first.. you are the one who set the pace, by example.. Christ way by “washing feet”
Last verse of the old testament:
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
And he will turn
The hearts of the fathers to the children,
And the hearts of the children to their fathers,
Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse. (Malachi 4:6)
Many children will follow in the footsteps of their fathers when it comes to a belief in God or not. God put the father in the position as leader in the home, but the father is also a picture of God Himself.
To become a father, one must first learn to be a son.
To show us His Fatherhood, God sent us His Son.
The whole of The Scriptures centers on the relationship between a father and his son.
Father is not just His station or position. He is Fatherhood.
I agree with you, Inna, in that a child’s first impression of God, be they male or female, is made by their father.
True. And many of us struggle for the rest of our lives to grasp any facet of God we didn’t see manifested by our father, or at least by a father figure in our life.
I love Coach Dungy.
To me, the biblical definition of manhood, outside of Jesus, is David. He had the ability to write songs, worship God, and would even cry in them at times, write poetry, play guitar and lay his life down for all of those around him, violently if need be, grab a lion by its beard and kill a bear with his hands. He was a defender, fighter and a lover and man who knew God with his mind and emotions; famous and yet still humble. He knew the word. And his wife was not afraid when they were walking home at night. That is the man I pray I become. Yes, his life ended a wreck because of choices he made, and our sin will find us out, but he was a man after God’s own heart.
Liked the video, think its important for us to take a look at biblical masculinity, and just in our western culture….
While i like Mark Driscoll, i dont think he should be the true poster boy, for masculinity, Jesus style! I also, am not sure on the false prophet term, but I do think you raise a strong point regarding what wrong perceptions are we indoctrinating the church with? Thier leaders included!
This debate reminds me of a young poet I once saw on youtube. He has interesting commentary on the roles of men in society, definitely worth watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKNl5OK1Yew
Also I have to say, @Inna, I loved what you wrote. Thanks for taking the time to share that.
I have a little bit different approach when I realize that I’m not experiencing the the fruits of the spirit, or love, or any other characteristic that seems to be outside of where I should be. I don’t believe that changing your actions will change your heart, but rather to confess to God the need to change and let Him change you, then the actions will follow. I know that this is counter to what you will usually hear in the church. It is like walking through deep mud – its slow going, takes a long time and takes a lot of work. But its honest and real, and leads to true change. I don’t mean to insult coach Dungy, I’m a big fan. But I have tried both, and speaking for myself, this is the only way that I experience real change. It is important though, to still consider others and control your outside actions as you go through this process.
I continually stay in 1 Corinthians 13. I’m beleivng that as I keep reading these verses, and keep reading them, and keep reading them, that they will get deep down in my spirit and I’ll begin to live what I am reading.
I’m not sure it works like that.
Okay..
So, when I read BLJ I was under the assumption that Don and Mark were actual friends. But I guess now time
maybe has changed things. I love Pastor Mark, years ago. I hated him, but I have come to love what he has to
say about loving Jesus with all of your heart, and as far as being a man, he has clearly sad that being a man isn’t just about being tough and being able to burp the loudest. He says that manhood is a balanced mix
between being both tough and tender. And if you, Don want to call Driscoll a false teacher just man up and do it already, get it off your chest.
In love of course.
-Brandon
Leave it to Don to make more unfounded claims and assumptions about an issue that’s not really specified. False teachers? That’s a heavy accusation without any proof. It’d be nice if you actually mentioned which of said preacher’s teachings were false so your readers can see the connection.
That being said, what is wrong about shame? Guilt? A sinner does not come to repentance unless he sees his shame and sin first. Psalm 51 says the Lord does not despise a broken and a contrite heart. If that sermon was preaching straight out of the Word of God, then by all means let it convict the guilty.