You’ll never see me roll my eyes more than when I’m reading an old-school Christian book. I say “old school” because these books are changing for the better, and by that I mean they are becoming less “biblical” and more “like the Bible” and by this I mean more honest, truthful and written with less pretense or worldly idealism.
Even hearing the word “biblical” in a conversation will make me want to run for the door. The word itself denotes a desire to “proof text” and I associate it with a controlling motive. That’s not always the case, of course, but it often feels this way to me.
As a writer who does not like the word “biblical” though, I love the Bible. In my opinion, it is a rich tapestry of egoless narratives, poems and letters. Most of the writers were not chosen for their skill, I don’t believe, but each of them has an uncanny ability to remove pretense from their work.
Even Christ’s biographers depict Him without sparing us His humanity. He gets angry, He gets annoyed, He is hard to understand (and indeed hard to follow) and while He seems to love the world, He’s as alien as E.T., pointing always toward the heavens rambling about going home. It’s brilliant stuff when you stop reading it to figure out if you’re right or wrong about something. It’s life-changing, actually, the way your life gets changed by a friend over time.
I’m hoping this trend toward books that are less “biblical” and more “like the Bible” continues. I’m hoping to contribute a few more of those books to the world myself.
Have you seen the movie “Divided” (www.dividedthemovie.com)? It’s a “documentary” claiming that Youth Ministry is not biblical. They should read this blog.
Funny thing, is, after following your link, I think the “Divided” folks have a point.
I’ve long said that age-segregation is a bad idea in education (church or secular), in part because it creates an us-vs-them mentality between the different age groups (and especially between kids and adults), and because it narrows the scope of the students’ experience to their own age-peers.
I think a lot of what’s wrong with both the American public education system and Evangelical churches traces back to this.
Too many youth programs in churches today (in my experience) lack depth, honesty, and struggle. Part of this is because the whole church turns a blind eye to that part of the Christian experience, preferring a more superficial respectability, the image that everything’s fine.
Part of it, I think, is the way youth ministry is often conducted – long on banal, 7-11 praise choruses, pizza parties, and videos, and short on actual content and discipleship.
Faith needs deep roots to make a difference in someone’s life, long-term. I think a big part of the reason twentysomethings are jumping ship is because they never got this as youth, and so the entire endeavor feels like a rather lame social club.
(I’m coming at this from the perspective of a recent teacher, a former student, and the husband and son of teachers; I’m not some kind of leading expert on educational theory, though I do have some training. I was also an interim youth minister for a summer, but I grew up in a church without a major youth program – we did a few things “as youth,” but were mostly a part of the church as a whole … so take my advice for what it’s worth, with a grain of salt)
I think we have to be pretty careful with our diagnosis on society, specifically with youth ministry. Its a no brainer that the teachings of the bible have to be present, but that in no means makes outreach the enemy, or age based outreach for that matter.
What is severely overlooked here is not that this generation has “no respect for the bible” but that it is a generation that is HUNGRY FOR TRUTH.
there is a rejection of their parents faith that is being handed down to them, but by no means does that mean that their aim is wrong. The bible is pretty clear about him who seeks truth. So why the paranoia? How is it a bad thing that this generation is starving for truth?
I disagreed with a large portion of that movie sorry to say. its very easy to present a bias view, and the first 10 minutes alone where they landbast the “concert” for being “worldly” because of its music style is very suspect.
Why can’t we meet people where they are with truth? I honestly don’t see the problem with honest relevancy. Someone help me identify the crime here.
Just some extra thoughts on the film “Divided”…
From what I can tell, this documentary is NOT saying that youth ministry is “unbiblical”. Having experience as a youth leader myself, I believe ministering to youth is crucial for each kid’s development, and there are several points in the Bible where God uses youth to do BIG THINGS. Equipping these guys is crucial, because your adolescent stage is often when you become who you will be for the rest of your life! Now, before I go further, I realize this is a very general statement. Life is a journey and you’re always growing, but do you see where I’m coming from? Thought processes and ideas are forming big-time in this stage of life, and yet a kid is still pretty impressionable. I’m just saying that adolescence is when clay is being formed.
Going back to the film, it is saying rather that OUR contemporary method of ministering to youth is not biblical, because it lacks parents stepping up and teaching their kids. Being a part of a youth program myself when I was in high school,I know what it was like and frankly, I loved it. Playing games, hanging out, eating junk food… that was youth group for me. I loved it, because it was fun to hang out with my friends and flirt with the cute boys. But when I look back and examine where my growth actually occurred… that was because of my mom and dad. I was blessed with good parents, and any maturity I had in high school came primarily through the stuff they showed me.
My youth group experience wasn’t a negative one. In fact, it was very positive in many ways. However, it was SUPPLEMENTAL to my parents’ discipleship of me. Youth group is awesome, but it is secondary. It doesn’t replace parents. The film has a point when it says that fathers are just not stepping up to teach their kids, and I can attest that this is a HUGE frustration with youth leaders.
I’m still processing certain parts of this documentary and whether I agree with all of it (including the point that Jon made about the fir st 10 minutes where the concert was “worldly”… though I don’t remember anyone bashing the style of music, only the motive behind the concert). As someone who is currently going to school for specifically youth counseling, I give the makers of the film kudos for at least challenging to reevaluate what youth ministry looks like (or should look like).
*LIKE*
Sounds good. Now get to work!
I know what you mean Don. I’m trying to do that myself when I write, create, interact with people. Having grown up in Christian communities all my life, I was long oblivious to how easy it is to take the Bible for granted and sort of tack verses and passages conveniently onto whatever our agenda is. I think it merits repeating that not all people who quote the Bible are controlling; and if they are, not all have foul motives (some people make me wonder though). I’ve experienced a lot of legalism and control in my lifetime, and I’ve seen what damage it can do — it has turned many people I love away from the Church altogether. Sad. I won’t divest of my responsibility either; because I’ve not always been “like the bible” in my use of the Bible. Wait, can one even “use” the Bible?
Loved this.
I loved this post. I live in the South where, I honestly believe, the Bible is worshiped much more than Jesus, God, or the Holy Spirit and it it drives my husband and me crazy when we hear people going on and on about “biblical” things that could not possibly be more unChristlike. So frustrating and I’m happy to know that there are other people out there who think have noticed this too
I’ve gotten the feeling some people think the Bible is the fourth member of the Trinity…and, no, the math associated with that concept isn’t a problem for them either.
I feel like that can be said about A LOT of people who call themselves Christians, not just the stereotypical Southern types. I have family from Texas and they are stereotypical Texas Catholic conservatives; they never miss mass, their kids went to Catholic school, my grandmother owns a rosary, the whole nine yards. But the truth is, they have never figured out how to love and accept people. It’s sad to see people who really believe they are religious and they love God, but they seem to really miss the point
I remember almost word what a older, wise christian leader said: “..they worship their interpretation of the Bible more than God”. The Bible often seems so much safer – much under our control than the awe inspiring Lord of the universe who loves us and seeks a relationship with us.
I’m not sure how I feel about this.
First, I know you’re not doing this, but this sort of rhetoric reminds me of a friend of mine who said we shouldn’t call ourselves “Christian” because of the negative associations so many had with the word.
I get that, sure, because words have power, but for that very reason we should seek to change the association with the word, not cringe in terror from it.
And what about this notion of proof-texting versus living with the text? I certainly know what you’re talking about, people who treat scripture as if it’s the handbook for moral living, a codex of answers, rather than a story.
But the dichotomy here, in the end, breaks down because it’s not an either/or. We can live with the Bible as a story that informs us, we can also look to it for theological answers and moral guidance (as long as we’re aware of our own shortcomings in approaching it). I especially think this is true because different people are gifted in different ways and so called in different ways when it comes to text. Some people are fantastic literary readers, others understand scripture best meditatively, and some people are gifted systematic theologians. These are all gifts that bless the church, and all should be affirmed, not just the one that happens to have both been your gifting and to have blessed you.
Don,
Totally agree, identify and have been thinking this for a long time now.
Sometimes, Don, you look at “Christian” stuff and you voice your feelings of alienation from it, and this always gets you fans. You’re doing what you described above. Egoless. No controlling agenda to be an expert, to convince people to see things as you do and live in a way that you think works or determine who is right ‘cuz-the-bible-says-so-there. Sometimes, though, you say the same sort of thing in the same sort of way as various mainstream Christian figures do, and people go “Hey! What have you done with Don? We’ve already got people telling us what works and what doesn’t and what’s right and what isn’t.” It’s not fair, but that seems to be what’s happening. One thing I find frustrating in life is that God and other people have as much or more say in what we mean in a larger context, than we do. We choose what we do, but then regardless of our intentions, motives or whatever, other people pick it up, determine what it means to the world and complain about what they will complain about. It’s like making porridge for Goldilocks’ bears. But certain goodnesses transcend all of that. When it works, people have been seduced to realize that they already feel this and already agree with it. When it doesn’t, they feel like we’re selling something, or seeking funding, votes or a swaying of public opinion.
Been the same way for a couple of years, Don. In my circles we say that “biblical” is primary a power-over term. You only use it for things and with people you want power over.
We’ve just been honest with ourselves and used “Christian”. Because that at least implies that it is an interpretation.
Some use it as a means of conveying that they have a high regard for the Word of God and God and his Word are one. I understand the whole interpretation issue and the need for the Holy Spirit but that is not limited to those that are more systematically gifted.
I understand what he is saying and issues he has found there, but you will find issues everywhere.
I personally find those that may be more artistic may not come across as he describes systematic people, but they also can come across as worldly idealistic in a more subtle form which to me can be even more dangerous.
Long time reader, first time responder. I don’t know if you read or respond to these posts, but Don, if you’re looking for a great read and haven’t discovered Frederick Buechner yet, I’d encourage you to do so. Your sentiment here reminds me of his book “Telling the Truth: the Gospel as Tragedy, Comedy & Fairy Tale” but honestly, all of his books are amazing. If I could imitate his prose, I’d be a happy man. Keep up the good work!
At first blush, I think these mean the same thing. Of course, “biblical” can have negative “expert” and “legalistic” connotations assigned to it. But at the end of the day, I’d say that Jesus was “biblical”, but He was also sensitive not to gift it to swine nor feed it to dogs.
I’ve been riffing on a similar theme lately, the accessibility–let me just call it love–that we grant each other. I recall the KJV and ASV versions of Romans 2:11, “there is no respect of persons with God” and how “biblical” this sounds, so that we are relieved that newer versions translate this into “God does not show favoritism” or “there is no partiality with God”. But after reflecting on God and on respect, I think the older translations have it right. God loves us; why should He respect us? Respect connotes, among other things, an element of fear. A God that respects us might not be worth fearing.
Striving to be biblical over striving to love will cause problems. But I don’t see any issue in trying to emulate Christ in His biblicality. I would respect such a person.
Don,
I’m a little confused by the vagueness of your article and curious what you mean by “old-school” Christian books. Specifically, can you give a few titles or authors that you mean? I suppose also some titles or authors you mean are more “like the Bible”?
My initial response whenever I hear someone use language like you did is skepticism and cautiousness because I see many people who are trying to avoid the hard truths of the Bible. However, I value and respect your opinion, and I would like to hear more.
-David
I cannot speak for Don, but it seems to me that he’s talking about the difference between the heart behind the actions.
The Pharisees, for example, might be a good example of the Biblical camp – more concerned with pretense. More like the Bible would then be more in line with the heart of the Father – to loose the chains of injustice, to untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free, to share food with the hungry, clothe the naked, and shelter the wanderer.
The difference between putting all our effort, time, and focus on putting on a good show versus pouring all we are out to do the work of the Kingdom in people’s lives, so that they can know we are Christians because they have been practically and well loved through the love of the Father transforming Christians from the inside out.
As for how that carries over to the literature that Don was talking about, it’s right there to be seen: the Barna group did a study in 2007 and according to their research, non-Christian youths aged 16-29 viewed the church as: anti-gay (91%), judgemental (87%), and hypocritical (85%). In short, they don’t know we’re Christians by our love, but by the pretense we’re working so hard to maintain.
I think that’s what Don means by the difference between being Biblical and more like the Bible. So that those numbers, and those associations with Christians, will read something more like, “Christians: authentic, loving, loyal, love.”
As for specifics on authors and books, well, that’s not really the point. It’s getting caught up on semantics, isn’t it? Kind of like me wanting to know more about what you mean by “hard truths of the Bible” but recognizing that dissecting the question into a defensive or abrasive arguement isn’t at all the point. Rather, an open and honest dialogue.
And towards that aim of open and honest dialogue, I leave it to all and any to correct, alter, or refute what I’ve written.
Pharisees were the epitome of pretentiousness. But I wonder if postmoderns today look at old school modernists similarly to how they looked upon Samaritans. Who is judging who here? I am not speaking against you, Emeth, or anyone else here. But your comment provoked some further thoughts, however feeble, and I am responding to you to credit you for that. Thanks!
I’ve seen that too. I believe the bible reference is the blind leading the blind.
I was going to use the term bibilical as I don’t see anything wrong with it but out of consideration for your feelings I used bible reference.
Your feelings do matter to God and me. I just don’t think this either/or is the way to deal with it. It sounds like old school. New school is all things reconciled in Christ.
I also see God’s Word as an unfolding revelation of Jesus Christ. The bible says that the Jews were entrusted with that, but they stumbled over the great rock before them. It also warns us not to do the same thing. It breaks my heart for them and all of us that have done that.
Have you considered another approach? Not an either/or but to appreciate and be thankful to the previous generations for what they have contributed, while reflecting on their mistakes so they are not repeated. We don’t have to drop their wonderful contributions as they pass the batton to us and we finish our leg of the race.
One day we may discover ourselves in the same position.
Emeth,
Thank you for your response. I suppose the reason I was looking for specific examples was because I don’t trust vague generalizations that lump all “old-school” authors and Bible scholars together. To deny that followers of Christ in previous generations had nothing valuable to contribute to our understanding of Jesus sounds arrogant, and since there are a number of “Biblical” writers who I esteem and trust, I think that clarification is necessary.
As I said in my original post, although Don has earned credibility with me through his past writings and I want to hear more from him, unfortunately there are many times where language like he used in his post makes me nervous. As much as previous generations may have been too heavy with assaulting people with out-of-context verses and extra-biblical ideologies (and believe me I think this is often true!), I see this generation often swinging the pendulum too far the other way. Too often I see current authors and pastors preaching an unqualified “love” of Christ without acknowledging the hard truths that Jesus and the rest of the Bible often bring.
These messages are going to be out of sync with our culture and they will abuse us for it. The common example (and I only bring it up because you mentioned it in your post) is homosexuality. Our culture overwhelmingly approves and supports it while the Bible condemns homosexual activity at several points, supports it nowhere, and the entire history of the Church has agreed that it is sinful. I know people say there are arguments to be made about this (and I certainly know that the Church has not always handled this with grace and love to say the least), but you have to admit that Christians who support homosexuality have the responsibility of taking a hard look at themselves to see if they are truly following the Bible or if they are following culture and popular opinion.
The fact of the matter is that no matter what we do, whether we have true Christ-like love or not, the world is going to hate us. Jesus tells us so in John 16. In fact, he even warns us to be careful if the world doesn’t hate us! Christ was the true model of grace and love, but that love also included truth. To the adulterous woman he said, “Your sins are forgiven,” but he also said, “Go and sin no more.”
Because of this, I am concerned when people tend to use euphemisms of being “more like Jesus” to avoid the holiness that he demonstrates as well.
-David
Hi, David,
There is a lot of fear in the Church about preaching too much love and grace. I simply don’t believe that’s possible. What Jesus did on the cross was pure love and pure grace. Zero judgement. He is our example; he is the one we are supposed to emulate. Every single human being who ever lived, is living or will live—all of their sins were covered on the cross.
As the people of Christ, we need to be less concerned with the sin of other people and focus on our own. We need to trust the all-powerful God we serve to handle the sin of other people.
That’s exactly what he did with the adulteress. He turned all the onlooker’s judgemental hearts on their own sin, which caused them to leave. Once Christ was alone with the woman, he then worked with her alone, related to her alone, to set her on a new path. Notice Jesus didn’t need anyone else’s help to do that. As a matter of fact, he waited until everyone else left.
As long as the church chooses to brandish stones at homosexuals, Jesus will continue to bring out the church’s own sin to make us realize just how dark we are and how evil and ugly we are to point the finger of judgement at ANYone.
Nicole,
What a wonderful point. I agree that we don’t need any spiritual help with condemning the sins of others (or fighting “culture wars,” for that matter), because judgment and condemnation come easily and naturally, especially from those of us in privileged positions (majority race, religion, sexual orientation, etc).
If we all tried to be more like Jesus and less like Billy Sunday or Pat Robertson, I think we’d be in better shape.
Here here, Tim!
Thanks Nicole.
Nicole, the Bible says otherwise. Even Ecclesiastes 3 points out that there is a time to build up and a time to break down. Constant grace as you suggest is sloppy and unbiblical (or should I say “not like the Bible”?) If Jesus gave constant grace, why do we see Him harshly rebuke the Pharisees? Some of you will make an exception and say that it was because they were religious and legalistic, and while that is true, I must also point out it was because they were blinded by sin.
There are those in the church who are comfortable in the flesh, stubborn in sin, and walking in lust. Study the books of Corinthians – Paul deals with a man who is sleeping with his mother-in-law (1 Cor 5:2, 11-13; clearly disgusting because sin is disgusting). His instructions are not “be gracious, just deal with your own sin,” but “Excommunicate!” You see, grace cannot flow to hardened hearts. Only the ones who are broken truly realize their need of saving! Proverbs 14:14 says the backslider shall be filled with his own ways, and thus when sin begins to reveal its emptiness man realizes how much he needs Christ and His forgiveness. Realize that grace does not give permission to sin. Christ was merciful unto the adulterous woman, but what did He say to her? “Neither do I condemn you… go and sin no more.”
Back to Corinthians; after that man in sin was excommunicated, Paul tells the church to restore him as he has since repented (you see, there must be that breaking, that conviction of sin before grace can be shown. If not, this grace you advocate is not of God as it deals loosely with sin – and sin is serious! After all, Christ called us to crucify our flesh, die to sin, and be raised in newness of life, yeah?)
I encourage you to reread Matthew 7 about judging. Verse 5 is interesting because Christ continues, “Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye.” So sin in others must be dealt with also, but not from a condemning standpoint – rebuke that is of Christ must be broken, for it comes from the perspective that I too am a sinner and in need of Christ. But hey, if your brother is sinning, save him from the fire and point him back to the purity of walking with Christ. Simple as that.
Hi, Nina! Thanks for your comments. I simply place my faith in the power of Christ’s work on the cross and in the fact that he’s an all-powerful God and that he is Love. Paul made decisions on how to speak to and direct the people who looked to him for leadership. In my opinion, that is one teacher’s actions in one part of the Body of Christ at one time. Whether it applies directly to another part of the Body of Christ 2000 years later…well, that’s something for each person to get with God and meditate on.
Notice, in the story of the adulteress, Jesus didn’t condemn her or excommunicate her for her adultery…he didn’t even threaten her with excommuncation or anything like that. Between himself and her he told her to then go and sin no more. Why do we assume we can put ourselves in the place of Jesus with strangers?
It’s different, I think with a family member or an intimate friend. But to condemn strangers is not our place. It only pushes people away from Jesus, IMO.
I am by no means saying that I am not possibly in error. All I know is that what Jesus did on the cross has an immensity of power that we can only guess at. I personally believe that only Jesus can tailor loving salvation to each person, and that when he said that all the Law and Prophets were encapsulated in “Love God…and love others as yourself,” he pretty much simplified it for us.
Love is the first and most important command.
Hi Nicole,
Thanks for the reply! I think we’re talking about different situations, so that’s why we are in disagreement. My comment was meant to address grace, the church, and the call to live holy in totality; essentially, there are times to show grace, but there are times to show tough love and discernment in how to deal with issues of sin within the church.
You seem to be talking about more personal, smaller level situations, and I do agree with you.
“Condemning strangers..” I never said nothing of the sort. Christ did not come to condemn, and neither should His people. This is also wisdom working; Proverbs 26:17 says those who meddle are like those who grab a dog by the ears. It’s not my place to go up to someone and say, “Hey, you need to fix this and that” because I know that I am every bit as fallen and every bit in need of grace. “As freely as you have received, freely give.” This is the graciousness that comes from humility, knowing the mercy of the Father and applying it to others (like the story of the debtors in Matthew 18). Proverbs also warns not to reprove a scorner lest he hate thee, so there are times where we just have to deal with our own sins and let Christ deal with others in theirs. Don’t take the place of the Holy Spirit.
But there is a big difference with people who have desensitized themselves to the Spirit and are not actively pursuing Christ or walking in the spirit (Gal 5). These are people like the man in the Corinthian church who slept with his mother-in-law. That’s some deep sin, and sin is devastating and must be dealt with! If they do not want to walk in righteousness and holiness as God has commanded, then they are squandering grace.
And who said rebuke isn’t loving? The Bible says to speak the truth in love, but sometimes the truth isn’t always easy to hear. Furthermore, don’t just speak the truth in love; love them enough to speak the truth.
But I agree; Christ’s love is powerful and shows a more excellent way. I like the prayer of St. Francis… “Where there is hatred, let me sow love.” Hatred, contention, condemnation is man’s way. But love, grace, and mercy is Christ’s. Just don’t forget that there are times to be tough; sin can’t be brushed aside. The sacrifices of our God are of a broken and a contrite heart, meaning it takes a heart broken over its own depravity to come to the throne of grace. It’s only when we’re at the end of ourselves that we come to the beginning of God, but that can’t happen when we’ve settled comfortably into lifestyles of sin when the Christian lifestyle is a total death to the flesh! Hope that makes sense!
David,
Thanks so much for this, reading through it I was actually very moved and happy to hear your thoughts more. It’s a good reminder for me that those with whom I don’t see eye to eye all the time are still intelligent people who believe what they believe for reasons. Thanks David, I think it was a timely reminder for me.
I do now completely understand your request for specifics, and respect it. I think I rushed too quickly to assume that you were looking to deconstruct, and I apologize for that.
I do see and tend to often agree with you about the pendulum swinging, although as I myself am a gay Christian I do disagree with your specific example, but I don’t think that that invalidates the point you were making about hard truths and the world hating us regardless of what we do about it.
I guess I tend to think – and it’s just off the top of my head, not overly processed thoughts – that the world hating us may have to do more with the hard truths of the gospel insofar as the complete and irrevocable messages of love and total redemption. Just as an example, and not meant to open a can of worms, the issue of Christians exulting and celebrating the death of human beings, no matter how evil. To me, the hard truth of the gospel is that that person was still a creation beloved by their Creator, and their death in such a lost state is cause for extreme saddness for me, and an opportunity to demonstrate the mind-boggling love by extending respect and courtesy when the world’s logic says “screw ‘em.” Again, not that these examples are set in stone thoughts or anything, just ponderings on how it’s possible for the world to hate us for too much love.
Anyway, those are just my thoughts. I’m so happy for the chance to read yours, David – I think it’s brough new meaning to the term “iron sharpens iron” for me.
And don’t worry – I’m not offended by your views of homosexuality nor do I militantly want you to change them. From what I’ve read, I think your heart is in a great place with respect to your Creator, and your obviously putting effort into thinking about things. Your passion and intelligent thoughts on the issue are a breathe of fresh air from others who militantly come against me and others like me without thinking and without engaging.
Thanks for your very real and honest comments on the issue – such as me taking a hard look at whether or not I’m really following the Bible. I think it’s an honest and important question, and rest assured – I am. And I don’t take offense at people asking those questions.
I think what we need is a lot more people in the Church like you: embodiment of Philippians in the sense that you’ve “been put here for the defense of the gospel” and “full of the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.”
We can meet civilly and intelligently, each looking to authentically engage the Father and each other, on issues that we disagree about.
Thanks David. I’m blessed by you!
By you too, Emeth.
Very well said Emeth and David. I have great respect for you both!
I echo your response, David! Well said. Once again, Don, really interesting post, and the responses mimic that as well.
Just a thought to add to the mix…
Many people associate the Word as the Bible. Others associate the Word as a person – Jesus Christ.
The Written Word and the Living Word. Two totally different entities that create much confusion. Often “biblical” gets tied into the “Word” which gets tied into the person of Jesus Christ, and then “biblical” or “the bible” becomes the object of worship, instead of Jesus. This difference has definitely created a lot of conflict within the umbrella of Christianity.
The Written Word reveals the Living Word, however, the Living Word is not the Written Word.
Many people don’t even realize that there’s a difference. I didn’t until it was pointed out to me.
Instead of being “biblical”, maybe we should just try to be like Jesus – who was revealed by the scriptures, but isn’t contained by them…
“He’ll be coming and going” he had said. “One day you’ll see him and another you won’t. He doesn’t like being tied down–and of course he has other countries to attend to. It’s quite all right. He’ll often drop in. Only you mustn’t press him. He’s wild, you know. Not like a tame lion.”
— C.S. Lewis (The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe)
Jer
Very well put, Jer!
Excellent Excellent point!
I don’t understand you…
If we are “Christians”, followers of Christ, and we want to have a deeper relationship with God, shouldn’t we do what he tells us to do? How can we know what to do? If Jesus is revealed in God’s holy scriptures, then shouldn’t all Christians strive to be more “Biblical”? Isn’t “proof-texting” a way of applying His truth to all of life?
Yes, as long as we are applying it to our own lives in order to be more like Jesus, and not trying to use it to control others’ behavior. It’s easier to tell your friend about the speck in his eye than to remove the log from your own. I think that is where Don was going with this.
No, “proof-texting” is a way of selecting the parts of the Bible that support our agenda and ignoring the parts of the Bible that don’t. The problem is, every one who tries to live out the Bible can fall prey to this fallacy. But to me, not trying to live out the Bible is a much bigger fallacy.
I’ve been getting annoyed for some time (mostly online, but not solely there) with people’s mistaken assumptions and thoughtless objections when they know I’m a Christian, and I’ve been telling people “No, I’m not trying to act like a Christian, I’m actually trying to be like Jesus.” The very idea that these might be different things usually ends conversations right there, rather than starting them.
Donald-
Good writing–you are at your best when you let us hear your theological mind set.
not to say what you’re saying is bad but “He was aslo sensitive not to gift it to swine nor feed it to dogs” now don’t tell me that you don;t think only certain people deserve the gift of God because i am a swine a dog and so many other things i could say that I wont’t for the sake of those with sensitive ears here but watch out what you say jesus brought his word to liars robbers murderers and prostitutes. People who said one thing and lived one way on the outside and then lived another way in their hearts please don’t point the finger unless it’s at a mirror first and we as fellow christians should and will all do the same
sorry this wasn’t directed at the writing but something someone said in a comment ooops
That was me. I got it. I agree with everything you said, Jacob. What I meant to say is that, when we love someone, we only give them what they can handle. I don’t give my newborn infant a steak and red wine, even though that might be “better” than milk. If the Bible causes someone to stumble, I will talk about history, science, personal experience to try to seek truth together. But that doesn’t mean I give up on the Bible myself.
The Bible isn’t necessary for someone to love Jesus, and to come to Him. To act otherwise does seem like a form of idolatry.
But we can become closer to Jesus, changed more into His likeness, through the Bible.
I see now I can agree thank you for explaining i was just a bit taken aback i think sorry for this misunderstanding god bless I very much agree with what you say “If the Bible causes someone to stumble, I will talk about history, science, personal experience to try to seek truth together. But that doesn’t mean I give up on the Bible myself.” those are words of wisdom that actually put some thoughts I have been having lately on paper i guess thank you
Like David wrote above, I would like to hear some examples of “old school” Christian works that have used that terminology and the newer writers you have appreciated. I see where you’re coming from, I’d just like for you (since you’re someone who seems to have thought hard about this) to flesh it out a little!
I’d love a list of some of these books…
Recently Ian Cron’s book blew me away. What does it for you?
Well stated Don. I too start to get uncomfortable when terms like “Biblical” and “Christian” start being thrown around as a means of instructing people how to think or act. Jesus came to bring us salvation, a salvation that freed us from religious obligation for the sake of obligation in and of itself. Jesus is freedom and life, not control and rules. As I read my Bible I find a faith that is free of religion and full of Jesus. I try to live my life the same way.
I love this idea. Don and I hope to see this idea in and of itself in a book sometime soon. Brilliant.
So good. Just fantastic, Don.
I’m 21 and about to start a career as a youth Pastor and I always felt that same reaction when people throw down the word “biblical” as a conversational trump card. Especially when it comes to speaking or writing.
Thanks for giving beautiful and humble words to this situation, it’s like you’ve taken my emotions and organized them in a way I can understand them.
Thanks, bro.
You might like “Mything Out On Jesus & His Teachings” by Timmons. Awesome read to ponder with a small group of people whom with you can share intimately/candidly…
Oh! Hit a raw nerve there for some. Must be stirring up the murk a bit, Don.
Couldn’t agree more. Great post, Don.
What puzzles me: 1) you dislike the “controlling motive” of “biblical” such that you want to run for the door and yet 2) you like the depictions of Jesus’ humanity in the Gospels, and you highlight Jesus’ anger and annoyance.
Well, when Jesus was angry and annoying, was he not exhibiting a “controlling motive”? Was he not criticizing his hearers (be they Pharisees or his disciples in varying scenes) for not being and doing as he wanted them to be?
I may mis-read you, but this is what I read your post to convey: the humanity of Jesus expressed in anger and annoyance is attractive to you, but the humanity of Christians today who seek to be doers of the Word and to encourage others to do likewise is offensive to you.
Have you read the bible? You describe it as honest, truthful and written with less pretense or worldly idealism. The bible is not honest or truthful (http://www.project-reason.org/gallery3/image/105/.) The bible is not written with less pretense of worldly idealism (this one is self-evident, as you can go line by line and easily attribute every verse in the bible that tells humans how they “should” behave as worldly idealism).
Because of the strongly contradictory nature of the bible it is difficult to pin down the bible’s actual characteristics. It’s a “good source of morality” at some points, but turns out to be “unambiguously genocidal” when God recommends slaughtering the enemy (including women and children) and “cruel and depraved” when it talks about how women being treated as property, even to the point of forcing a women to marry her rapist (http://bostonbravery.wordpress.com/2010/12/29/the-truth-about-biblical-marriage). This list goes on an on.
It would be a very scary thing if Christians actually followed this book. Fortunately even Christians have trouble getting through the pentateuch… it’s just awful. Most Christians don’t actually want to be more like the bible (I hope), they want to be more like the new testament. Even that is problematic. The bible is not a book for children.
Joshua: I agree with you that the Bible does appear cruel and unusual, when viewed from the context of our culture.
Perhaps to a subsistence farming society, surrounded by neighboring tribes and countries regularly engaged in genocide, slavery, misogyny, incest, atrocious hygiene, and human sacrifice, the Pentateuch might appear rather progressive and enlightened, don’t you think?
We can rail on about Thomas Jefferson’s failures with slavery, for exmaple, but for the context of his time, he wasn’t the worst of all sinners.
Even though you and I could each list off a bunch of things that are wrong with our current culture, I’d bet that future generations will look back to some of our highest ideals (e.g. forbidding me sell one of my kidneys to save another person’s life) and feel just as reprehensible as we feel about some of those ancient cultures.
Writings are better when written in the context of the audience’s culture, correct? (Don is actually great at this). Yet, either way, we have a problem. It’s either the way the Bible is geared towards a specific cultural context to maximize communication, or maybe the problem is with the culture itself.
Science, for the most part, doesn’t confirm or falsify the Bible’s claims, as it is an orthogonal (walk by sight) process to the Bible’s elevation of faith. Pure science cannot comment on things like ethics, beauty, or even math.
But I am I can find a 2-3,000 year old document that could be scientifically discredited less than the Bible, so as a truth-seeker, I find that rather interesting and unexpected.
Also, I agree with your last sentence. I am going to try to avoid having my kids reading Song of Solomon and other PG-13 stuff for as long as I can. I try to avoid it myself, unless my wife is with me.
I am a consistently historically consistent normal Bible interpreter. The result of that has given what many Christians find very troubling. Please read my FREE eBook, Biblical Sex, at http://www.BiblicalSex.info. There are no catches. I am selling nothing. It is truly free.
You lost me at “I am a consistently historically consistent normal Bible interpreter.”
OK, which of those words gives you the problem?
Calebb, I’ll admit to being a bit sarcastic. First, the grammar in your phrase is tough to decipher. Can’t say I’ve run across a chain of adverbs and adjectives quite like that.
You seem to be making some statement about your accuracy and objectivity in interpreting Scripture. I won’t get into a discussion about the hermenuetical loop. I’ll just say that your tone is ironic in light of the post.
All that to say, I just should have kept my fat mouth shut.
Don, I think you are on to something. My main issue with old school books is the premise that good theology means leaving the author’s story out of the writing. At best it becomes midrash and at worse it become proof texting. Good theology must be practical and real in other words good theology must have a real story. Without the real story I would rather read Harry Potter.
I enjoy the fact that Christians can come here on an informal blog to discuss our core beliefs. Each generation past and present had questions and cross roads to prayerfully cross in our Christ walk. I won’t get into the things or fence laws that the Church had when I was younger, but suffice it to say the very things that kept me away from Christianity were legalistic. I have a peace now, not as the world gives, but what Christ gives. Do I make mistakes? You bet, but I forge forward in love, mercy and thankfully Gods grace. I think we get so caught up on certain issues that our fear prevents us from doing God’s work, “to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I agree with Emeth,” in Christ the Chains are off”. Lets face it we are merely flawed humans, not God. “ Nobody can understand what God does here on earth. No matter how hard people try to understand it; they cannot; no one can really understand it. (Ecclesiastes 8:17) It was so important in the verse He said it twice. Matthew 11:27-28 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. So my point is God is more concerned with the things of the heart, we do not understand where the Holy Spirit leads people in their particular circumstance. God’s grace is sufficient. I know this because when my gay daughter came out of the closet my wife and I went in, until the Holy Spirit nudged us back out. If we had listened to some people we would still be consumed with guilt and shame and we would be no earthly good to help others that have to work through this family dynamic, as parents your response can mean life or death to your child, Gods child. I struggled with this concept of my daughter professing that she was still a Christian but I now see the fruits of her gentle, humble, loving spirit. I truly believe that no bad fruit comes from a good tree. Also in Luke 9: 49-50 “Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.” “Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.” Again even the Disciples weren’t able to understand what Jesus was doing at the time. This division needs to stop. Take the parable of the Samaritan women at the well. It was not just to teach the divorcee, but also the other Samaritan’s in town for ostracizing her, plus the disciples, for their discrimination against the Samaritan. To the Jews, the Samaritans were half breeds, traiters who tainted the blood line of Christ . How ironic, because Jesus thought differently, and we should too.
Hey Don,
As your loyal reader who likes to disagree with you, I want to ask: What exactly is the point of this post? This is reminiscent of the “Christian” vs. “Christ follower” debate – who really cares? Follow Christ. Bear fruit. Walk in the Spirit. In the end it doesn’t matter whether we’re known by “Christian” or “Christ follower” – they’re just labels. But I want people to know I am walking with Christ and to see the fruit of the Spirit.
Second, to all those commenting and saying that the Bible isn’t as important as our relationship with Jesus, read 2 Timothy 3:16: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” I think you all are forgetting the importance of the Word of God in our lives – anyone who professes to follow Him but does not abide in His word will live a life lacking in power, for it is through scripture that we grow in righteousness, doctrine, the “meat” of our faith.” Anyone will agree that “knowing” is essential in relationship – how can I be close with someone if I barely know anything about them? We learn about Christ from His Word. It is God-breathed, inspired – literally our “breath”.
I wonder if you’re referring to my earlier response about the difference between the Living Word and Written Word – when talking about the Bible not being as important as our relationship with Christ. If you were, I’m not sure if you read what I wrote correctly.
The scripture you used in 2 Timothy is referring to scripture, not the Word of God. Scripture is very important, and I don’t think I said it wasn’t. I was merely pointing out that the Bible gets elevated to an equal par with God Himself. People begin to worship scripture instead of Jesus. Scripture reveals God – but is not God. According to the scriptures – the Word of God is Jesus Himself, not the scriptures. That’s the point I was attempting to make. Just look at the first chapter of John’s gospel.
Scripture is indeed inspired by God – “God breathed.” But – let me throw this in the mix. Technically – all of humanity is “God Breathed” as well – it’s how we were created. What’s one to do about that?
Ok – I’m chuckling at that last part.
God is not dependent on the words within the scriptures. He is revealed by them. The scriptures are hugely important! They help us know His story and they reveal His character. Scripture helps us to know Him. But God is bigger and better than a book. We pray to a living God, not words printed on a page.
Some people, if pressed, don’t really believe this.
“The Word became flesh…” – and we keep trying to contain Him back into words. Many people use manipulative language and words the appear to have authority (like “biblical”) in order to control thinking and behavior. I think that’s the frustration that’s some have with religious words.
But – of course, this is all my opinion.
Good discussions!
Jer
Hello Jer,
Interesting point – thanks for your input! I meant to address the emerging church as it has been moving away from the authority of scriptures and thus serves up “sloppy grace” if you will. Without the Word of God, the church falls apart – it no longer has any grounding. The early church in Acts 2 thrived because it abided in God’s Word, fellowship and prayer. I do see what you mean; I know Revelation mentions the church of Ephesus that does good in reproving evil men, but it is admonished for forgetting its first love – Jesus Christ. Some read the Bible but merely let it stagnate as head knowledge – let it not be so! I just don’t understand how Don somehow jumped from “Biblical” to meaning “legalistic condemnation.” Be biblical! But don’t forget that love is the greatest of all (1 Cor 13)
Ok, I was going to wait for your response, but I can’t contain myself and wanted to add a bit to what I said earlier.
First thing I wanted to ask: where do you base your comment off of? From what I am seeing, many comments here make large and generalized assumptions about those who are diligent in reading their Bibles. When was it ever said that we worship the Bible? How did we ever reach the conclusion that just because we abide in the Word of God that we somehow believe the Bible is a part of the trinity? A huge and unfair assumption on your part. It seems that many are building straw men and then attacking it rather than the real issue of “What is the Bible?” and “What are we to do with it”?
Back to 2 Timothy 3:16; we esteem the Bible so highly because it is inspired of God – literally out of His mouth! We believe the authority of Scriptures because we first believe the authority of Christ. If Christ, being truth, speaks, then we must believe His words have authority. If we do not adhere strictly to scripture, then essentially it is we who become the authority, for then we will dictate what is scripture, what is inspired of God, what is not a part of Christ as the Word. That is man’s doctrine, a dangerous place to be in light of our depravity and stupidity in spiritual matters.
Second, the Greek word for “Word” in John 1:1 is Logos, which I have heard described in a commentary as “the Thinker of the thought before creation.” Literally, Christ was, and “I AM” before the beginning of time. Christ IS the truth and Christ SPOKE the truth; Christ IS the Word made flesh, and Christ SPOKE His Word (His commands, teachings, precepts). The Bible is the Word of God and has complete authority because it came from HE who has complete authority. You cannot take one or separate one from the other. Hope this makes sense. I will be eagerly waiting your response.
Your passion and enthusiasm are awesome. Pretty sweet…
Alright. First – I never compared scripture to being the fourth member of the Trinity – as somebody else did above. Just wanna get that straight. However, I do believe some people elevate the scriptures higher than they should. I believe this can be a slight step towards putting God in a box…
Second. The Pharisees within the New Testament scriptures knew “the Word/Bible” better than anyone around. It was memorized. They especially knew it better than fishermen and tax collectors – Jesus’ disciples. They worshipped the written word (Hebrew scriptures/Old Testament) and crucified the Living Word – Jesus. They were very “biblical.”
Third. I think there’s just a confusion of language. When you say “Word of God” – you think the bible. When I hear Word of God – I think Jesus. I guess that’s the point that I was trying to make in the first place. I really do believe there is a distinction, and that distinction can turn really ugly.
You pointed that distinction out in your comment above, but never backed your definition of “God’s Word” with any actual scripture. I’d love for you to show me scripturally where you get your definition of “the Word of God” or “God’s Word” – without it just referring to Scripture. At least for me, there seems to be a leap in logic, because every scripture you’ve mentioned so far does not use the term “Word of God.” Enlighten me. I always love learning new things – for real – so, please point it out so I can stand corrected.
Fourth. The bible – as we know it – wasn’t canonized until hundreds of years after the time of Christ. I’m not gonna go into a big history lesson here, but at the time of Christ – and many years later – there was no New Testament. For instance – in Acts 2 – it says “they devoted themselves to the Apostle’s teaching…” The apostle’s teaching later became what we know as the bible today. But it wasn’t the bible. Also, if you want to get technical, the “scripture” in 2 Timothy that Paul was referring to – wasn’t the New Testament – it was the Old Testament. The New Testament hadn’t even been compiled yet…
Fifth. I agree humanity is depraved, in the sense that we all turn away from God and esteem Him not. I also believe Jesus is the truth and is best revealed through the written testimonies of His time being here. I also believe that the scriptures are inspired by God Himself, through the work of the Holy Spirit.
However – while the scriptures are HUGELY important and inspired by God – man’s interpretations can be very depraved. Just look at the Pharisees and Sadducees, to start. And you don’t have to look far in today’s culture to see how twisted people can make the scriptures. My first introduction to Christianity – as a kid – was hearing about Jim Jones (I lived for a brief time in the Bay Area). Look him up if you don’t know who he is. And how ’bout those loving Christians that picket soldier funeral’s – waving their banners of “God’s Word”? Yes – you quoted 1 Cor 13 – one of my favorites. Any sane person could look at those picketers and say, “Wow, that’s not very loving.” But – from their perspective, that’s exactly what they think they are doing – loving. Man is depraved.
Soooooo – when someone use a word like “biblical” – it can be the red flag. People can be manipulated from the very scripture that’s supposed to set them free. Anyone can say a lot of evil things and back them up biblically. Prosperity gospel is an example – to name an easy target….
One of my favorite scriptures is this:
17 As iron sharpens iron,
so one man sharpens another. (Proverbs 27:17)
May we continue to sharpen one another as we learn how to love our Savior.
Jer
Hey Jeremy,
sorry for the late reply!
I must strongly disagree, however – how do scriptures put God in a box? On the contrary, if we do not hold to scriptures, how do we know about God? I like how E.W. Bullinger puts it: ” The Word that is preached makes known the Written Word; the Word that is written makes known Christ the Living Word; and Christ makes known God our Father.” You cannot divorce the Living Word from the Written Word; after all, Christ did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it! (Matt 5:17)
On that note, Christ Himself was biblical. He read and fulfilled the passage of Isaiah in Luke 4; Jesus esteemed the law, because the law is of God and reveals His righteousness. Christ mentions this in Matthew 5:20.
The Pharisees, on the other hand, but have professed to be religious, but they were not biblical. They added to the law, they took away from the law. Even the OT reduced everything into 3 commands in Micah 6:8 – to act justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. Were the Pharisees obeying this? If not, they were not biblical as you claim. (Just wanted to add to this: I don’t understand how many here come to the conclusion that those who adhere to the Bible are stringent, back-breaking, and very “stiff”; on the contrary, I believe that those who are truly “biblical” are the Christians who are most like Christ. From Genesis to Revelation we learn of God’s holiness yet God’s mercy, God’s justice yet His overwhelming love for people – those who read His Word are built up in all the right things; we are convicted by His spirit, spoken to, instructed.. just all around 2 Tim 3:16.)
Third: I don’t think I’ll be half as good as explaining, so I’ll quote Bullinger again on this one… “Christ is called the Word of God because He makes known, reveals, and explains the Father. This is why the Scriptures are called the Word of God, because they make known the Father and the Son, by the Holy Spirit, the author of the Word.” Study the Greek! It’s very interesting and reveals so much depth. I think it’ll do much to clarify this issue as well; English meanings can get confusing really quickly; Greek is much more precise.
Fourth: Tanakh is from God. We have the ceremonial law, the moral law, and civil law; it was for Jews and their protection, preservation, sanctification, and to reveal the coming Christ. Then you have Christ, who revealed God (John 1:18). You also have the apostles’ teachings, and they were men who followed Christ and were obedient to the Spirit which revealed His spiritual truths.
Fifth: no argument here.
It’s important to realize that no one can interpret scripture by himself – that is eisegesis! Interpret the Word BY the Word only. His Spirit reveals truth; if we are left to our devices how far we will be! Oh yes… Westboro baptist church – tragic misrepresentation of Christ. But hey, Jesus says you will know those who are truly His disciples by their love. And you know 1 Cor 13… if they ain’t reflecting that, then they are not of Christ. I love how Jesus made everything so simple.
I must say that I do also understand part of what you are saying; there are those that may know scripture but they are the furthest thing from reflecting Christ. But it’s important to realize that they are not so because of scripture, but because they have not allowed it to truly penetrate their hearts. I’ve heard it put it this way: You might be marking your Bible, but is your Bible marking you? In other words, don’t let it ferment as head knowledge; Corinthians says that knowledge puffs up. It is meant to breathe life into us! Psalm 19, “The instruction of the Lord are perfect, reviving the soul.” So to reiterate, those who know their BIble but don’t live it are not so because of the Bible; they are so because they merely have a form of godliness but really deny its power! I hope I am making sense. Hope to hear from you soon!
-Nina
Just wanted to add these verses; totally slipped my mind the other day. So in response to point 3 you made:
“So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples.” – John 8:31
“For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.” – Hebrews 4:12 (Interesting… shows that the written word is also living – it is alive and should be in our lives as well)
“..Take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.” – Ephesians 6:17b
“Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.” – John 17:17
“I have given them Thy word” – Jesus in John 17:14
Much much more, but I’ll leave it at that for now.
I get lost in the labels too Nina. I think each section just in the US have negative and or positive connotations on all of them.
I didn’t quite get Don’s point either…unless he was thinking more “legalistic” for his “biblical” term. And I can definitely see the problem with legalism…especially since I tend to be one, and am just beginning to be freed from some of my A+B=C crap my mind tends to do.
For me – Legalism = BOO!, Biblical – YAY!, but too often what I see as Biblical might really be legalistic which then = BOO!
Loved your points Nina!!
I always learn more from reading the comments…smart/wise people read these things. Love it!
Hey Shellybell!
Definitely agree with you! We’re all fallen and in these bodies of death as Paul says, so I struggle with legalism. The awesome thing is we do not follow rules or regulations, but pursue a relationship with Christ Himself! The law brings death, but Christ brings life! Constant sanctification as we walk in the Spirit (Gal 5:16). But hey, let everything be done in love! Christ’s Word says it, I believe it, but if I have not love I am nothing (1 Cor 13:2). Speak the truth in love; love them enough to speak the truth. Spiritual symbiosis – can’t have real love if it’s not grounded in the truth that is Christ, yet what will solid doctrinal teaching do if it is not fueled by my love for Christ and His people?
Nina
Your passion and dedication to Jesus is evident – and it’s obvious we’re on the same team. I think we just see some things differently. I could argue more points, but I think it’d be pointless.
My comments on this subject right from the beginning had everything to do with the original post by Donald Miller – and his aversion to the word “biblical”. I’m not speaking for him – but there are many people who hear that word from others and think “manipulation” or “control”. And some people’s interpretations are skewed – while quoting the Bible. I’ve personally witnessed this many times.
In the Bible, Jesus uses parables – which are stories that reveal spiritual realities (of course you already know this, but who knows who’s reading these comments…) However, those stories are not always so black and white as many people try to make the Bible out to be. For some people, the spiritual reality within the story is hidden – and just a seed of something is left inside of them. Early on in my walk – I didn’t understand half the parables that I read, but I knew there was something there – I just couldn’t put my finger on it. Over time and prayer – God has slowly revealed many things to this stubborn and – slow to learn – follower.
Today, some books are in the form of a story that convey spiritual truths without turning into an argument. Many people turn the story into an argument afterwards – but that was not the original intent of the author, for the most part. “The Shack” – being a prime recent example of this.
But, if that’s too controversial of a book – there are many others that do the same thing. C.S. Lewis’ Chronicles of Narnia – the Space Trilogy – and the Great Divorce – are other wonderful examples of being “like the bible” but not “biblical” that most people accept as being not heretical.
I also think that’s why so many people connect with Donald Miller’s humor. As I’ve read many of his stories, I’ve often thought that he was about to point his finger at others, when in fact he pointed straight to himself, which ultimately made me look myself in the mirror as well. Just the preface to Million Miles (volvo) kicked my butt. And who can forget the confession scene in Blue Like Jazz? Those aren’t “arguments” or “points” – they’re stories that convict. “like the bible…”
Anyway – good discussions! Hope God continues to mold us both into who we were truly meant to be!
Jer
Hey Jeremy,
I agree – we’re on the same team but perhaps not on the same page…. I still think the word you’re really looking for is “legalism”, but I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree and end the discussion there as it will be rather fruitless. I just want to say this: “Biblical” is not synonymous with “control” or “manipulation”. I’m not sure how it ever came to be interpreted that way, but if you don’t like to use that word then it’s your prerogative . Again, I really think the word you are really looking for is legalism (strict adherence to the law without a relationship with Christ), because I believe that truly Biblical Christians are never controlling or manipulative – rather, the Bible constantly exhorts us to love Christ, love others, deny ourselves, deny the flesh, walk in the spirit, and I could go on and on. If I neglect the Bible and deny its centrality in the Christian life, then my life will be fruitless, filthy, and powerless. In His word is Christ revealed, in Christ is God revealed. Ephesians 5 talks about the “washing by the Word” – if I claim to follow Christ yet do not abide in His word, I will be filthy, impure, and unusable. Hebrews 4:12 describes the Word as a sword that discerns the intentions of my heart – so if I claim to follow Jesus yet do not seek Him in His word, how can I be changed into His likeness if I am ignoring the medium through which He speaks and convicts me?
Earlier you mentioned Westboro and Jim Jones – you say many call them Biblical, I ask: what does the Bible say? What is biblical is love, submission, humility, gentleness, compassion, restoration. Westboro is hate, contention, arrogance, cruelty. Some call them “Biblical” without knowing what the Bible truly commands! Don’t just generalize Biblical to mean “controlling” just because there are some groups who claim to be Biblical and behave badly.
Yes, some interpretations are skewed. But is that Biblical? Nay, because it comes from an individual’s interpretation. All interpretation must be through the Holy Spirit – even 2 Peter 1:20 says that “no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation.” If someone’s interpretation is incongruent with another scripture, then it is unbiblical.
Hold fast to what is true. Man’s words and interpretations will fail and contradict each other. We’re depraved. God’s Word is pure, consistent, and coherent. Psalm 119 is awesome – check it out in your reading!
Anyway, keep seeking Christ. One Lord, one love, one body. I’ll be doing the same. May you be blessed as you continue to deepen your relationship with Jesus.
Jeremiah 29:13
Jeremy, I hear you. But I want to interject a cautinary word. Many are being *taught* to hear the word “biblical” and think “controlling” – whether they’ve actually experienced it or not. It can become a stereotype that is accepted as fact simply because it’s repeated so much or stated by popular teachers. And that is a form of control as well. It’s just being perpetrated by post-moderns and emergents instead of fundamentalists. These are traps we can all fall into.
“pointing always toward the heavens rambling about going home’
Or rambling about home coming here.
Great post! Thanks.
Nobody says it better than you, Donald. You have a gift.
Love reading your blog posts like this and seeing all of the comments. It’s amazing to me how you can make something that feels so complicated in my heart come out so eloquently. Guess that’s just the gift of being a writer, eh?
Agreed. Thanks for iterating this idea often. God is bigger than the bible. He is bigger than our religion about him.
Hey Don,
I was wondering what you think of Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. Is that old school or just a really brilliant man who talks practically about the bible? I was wondering your thoughts.
Matthew S. Jagnarain
A wise, gentle, retired pastor friend of mine once said this:
“Rather than interpreting Jesus through the lens of scripture, maybe we should be interpreting scripture through the lens of Jesus?”
Bam! Love it.
Derrick, this sounds great and I appreciate the spirit of it. But I do have a question, which may show how naive and simple I can be: Can we truly and deeply know Jesus, apart from how the Bible has described Him? I have tooled on this for many years, and so far, my answer remains ‘no, not really’.
[...] say too much about it, I just encourage you to give it a read and tell me what you think. http://donmilleris.com/2011/08/25/being-less-biblical-and-more-like-the-bible/ Share this:TwitterFacebookLike this:LikeBe the first to like this post. This entry was posted in [...]
Good discussion over at Scott Mcknight’s blog on “Biblicism” – 7 posts, I believe. Here’s the post with the definition of biblicism and why they think its a problem:
http://www.patheos.com/community/jesuscreed/2011/07/22/the-problem-with-biblicism-2/
i found it interesting to read of your view of those who fit into the “biblical” group. your view of them is much narrower than mine. whlle it is true that i have come across people in the “biblical” camp who are like those you describe…full of proof texts and can be a bit narrow minded, I have also found many who love not only the Bible, but its author!
their hearts are warm toward Christ and the heart of His teachings. i wonder if your attitude toward this distinction is similar to that of many in today’s world who demonize either conservatives or liberals (whichever camp they don’t find themselves in) when the truth that would actually solve issues would be found in combining the best of each world.
finding a way to reach out in grace to each other is what would show the watching world the evidence that Christ changes people. That He can change us and give us love for each other within our diversity. Seeing one another with eyes of grace is what is needed…for all of us. May God grant us the courage to trust Him for that grace…the same grace that enabled Him to come to earth and die for us…on a daily basis.
I have come across a frightening number of Christians who recite Scripture like they are earning Jesus bucks every time the hit someone over the head with a Bible verse taken out of context. Even as a Pastor hearing people quote Scripture can be frustrating (because of what they do with it). It seems that there are plenty of Christians content with knowing what the Bible says while remaining ignorant of what it really means.
We places ourselves as God as we read and we begin to decide and dictate for ourselves what the bible means rather than allowing God to say what the bible says. Too many Christians trying to change the Bible to be like them, not enough trying to change themselves to be like the Bible.
I have noticed a change with the younger generation. I totally agree. I hope we are moving toward a more bible like less biblical.
It is sad that when people ask me if the church i pastor is a biblical church I immediately start looking for a way out the conversation.
https://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/PastorTylerEdwards
I just wanted to say that I really want to read another book that will help us live stories like those in the Bible.Add to those lessons your personal stories of travels,relationships,etc.and your new books will join a cherished place next to “Searching for God Knows What”,”Blue Like Jazz”,”A Million Miles in a Thousand Years” and “Father Fiction”.They’ll sit next to my Bibles and they”ll go with me on my own journeys.I am excited about what you share in future books.Thanks for the inspiration.
[...] first is from Donald Miller and talks about how we use labels to gain power over others. I think it brings together the labels [...]
I really like this post. Whenever I hear the word “Biblical” I too cringe and almost never use it unless I mean it a very narrow, specific, way.
When people say “Biblical” I think what they actually mean is something like this:
“Cannot be discussed, questioned, or argued for.”
“Upright Middle Class.”
“Is correct.”
“Is not purely objective.”
“Is transcendent of cultural concerns.”
“Is transcendent of contexts and situations.”
“Shut up and listen to me.”
And so on and so on.
Now if people start living more Christ-like and less Christian….
Great post. Hope I can contribute some ‘Bible-like’ books to the world as well. I look forward to reading more of yours.
I find myself curious as to what is considered an “old school” christian book. I read a lot of C.S. Lewis, and am currently working my way through the books and essays of G.K. Chesterton. While I don’t agree with all of their views, I think that they write from a place of truth and knowledge more than pretense. I definately don’t get a sense of worldly idealism from them and a very few of their contemporaries I’ve come across. Of course, I do tend to skip over much of the last 50-60 years in most of my readings and if those are the “old school” years, then I probably don’t know what I’m talking about.
I also wish “old school” were clarified. I think maybe DM is describing books like JI Packer’s “Knowing God,” which I opened with great anticipation but decided after a few pages should perhaps have been titled “Knowing About God.” Because for every five or six words Packer wrote, he inserted two or three (or five) Scripture references parenthetically, which made reading rather difficult. Someone’s comment that “old school” might mean “midrash” also seems a propos.
Given that God provided both story and rule, I understand that it often seems easier (and always less ambiguous) to go with rule. Unfortunately, once you start to compile ALL the rules, and try to be honest enough not to write off the ones that seem inconvenient to you or your theological stream, a lot of the rules get pretty ambiguous over the entire course of divine history, too. God has given us the story of how God lives with God’s clan,which grows, opens its arms, squabbles, falls on its face, runs away from God on purpose and still is so loved by God that God looks forward to that fractious group as God’s own inheritance. Go figure. That’s the story. And we get to live it.